Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

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Bunkerbarge
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Bunkerbarge »

As per my first post, could anyone possibly point me in the direction of further information, pictures etc. and possibly shed any light on what the possible loads were for these wagons. I suspect the Flatrol might have been for naval gun barrels but how they were secured remains a mystery.

Further criticisms of the models in question are not necessary.

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
john coffin
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by john coffin »

There is no mystery about how gun barrels were attached to any wagon.
They were contained within cradles at each end of the wagon, and are clearly
visible in many available photos. It was the same system that had been used
on horse drawn wagons.

To gain the information you desire, you need to do exactly what the rest of us
do SEARCH. there are strange things called books and libraries which often contain
the information , it just requires diligence and patience, once you ignore information
from those who actually do know.

Paul
Seagull
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Seagull »

Bunkerbarge wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:55 pmI suspect the Flatrol might have been for naval gun barrels but how they were secured remains a mystery.
If you look at the larger image that jwealleans posted on the previous page it shows the set for what I am sure was a 14" gun barrel for the KGV class battleships. download/file.php?id=25490&mode=view

At the right hand end of the picture on the larger wagon is a large cradle and fairly thick metal loop. The cradle was probably lined with hard wood of some description - likely teak. The large metal loop would have been an almost exact fit around the breach end of the barrel. Once it was correctly positioned for weight distribution the metal loop would have been tightened up to hold that end rigidly in the cradle.

The muzzle end of the barrel would have been held in the small cradle on the smaller wagon to the left. Again the cradle was probably teak lined.
Notice there are two round metal rings on the side of the cradle. Wood pads would have been placed over the top face of the barrel to protect it and chains or just maybe ropes would have been used to hold it down into the cradle. This end of the barrel would have been able to move forwards and backwards a small amount as the wagon set went around curves.

Somewhere there is a picture of this set or one very similar with a gun secured on it.

The link below takes you to a picture from WW1 and is probably a 15" gun barrel but they have done this one the opposite way around so the muzzle end appears to be fixed and the breach end can slide.

https://i2-prod.nottinghampost.com/news ... oton-3.jpg

Alan
Playing trains, but trying to get serious
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Dave
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Dave »

If you are interested in wagon loading you might like to buy the new 3 volume series of books by
Peter Tatlow. Vol 1 is out now, it's called The L&NER Delivers the Goods.
You might also find useful - Freight Wagons and loads in service on the Great Western Railway and
British Rail Western Region published by OPC if you can find a copy.
Also you may find google is your friend, plus have you ever thought of joining a line society,
like the LNER Society they can be very helpful.
Bunkerbarge
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Many thanks for your help, I've just purchased the Peter Tatlow Book and I've also bought a copy of the J.H.Russell book.
Last edited by Bunkerbarge on Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bunkerbarge
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Thank you for your help Alan. It makes complete sense for one end to be fixed and the other end free to slide. Thanks for the picture.
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Dave
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Dave »

FLATROL AA.

I have been intrigued by the apparent discrepancy between the photograph of the Flatrol AA 235318
and the diagrams in the LNER diagram book and the British Railways diagram books. I had found some
information regarding the wagons history which I posted on here, and concluded the Flatrol had 2
body beams and the diagrams was possibly incorrect, on the assumption that photographs don't lie.

Well I have been looking very closely at a better copy of the photograph Bunkerbarge posted, which came from Peter
Tatlows original book on LNER wagons. The photograph has been doctored in that the background has
been painted out as with many official photo's, this painting out has removed some of the vehicle.

If you look at the rear of the bogie to the left of the wagon, you can see the underside of the
wagon which appears to be wider than the cross body timber support beam above. The 2 gun barrel
supports also seem to match the width of the body width by the bogie. Then we go to the right hand
end of the wagon and we can clearly see 2 wagon body beams cranking up over the bogies, but if we
look closely we can see 1 beam then a gap, then the other beam with the dark shading of a gap before
the white background. These 2 beams make the wagon look very narrow and narrower than the rear breach
holder and the cross body timber support beam. Even taking into account the perspective the wagon now
looks very odd. Returning to the front bogie the bogie frame slopes down to the bogie body from the
raised height for the buffers, you can see the gap between this slope and the bogie support underframe
has not been whited out and you can see in the background part of another vehicle.

To my mind the wagon has lost the 2 additional beams in the official whiting out of the background, and
the diagram in the book is correct and it should have 4 body beams.

This is only my interpretation and I would welcome comments as it's an intriguing conundrum. I await with
interest the hope that another photograph of this wagon comes to light.
Bunkerbarge
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Many thanks for your thoughts and insights Dave. I do tend to think that a drawing is far less likely to be doctored whereas photographs were frequently to remove background clutter but it would then raise the question of whether someone would be so incompetent to doctor a photograph of a wagon and remove significant pieces of it.

I have tried to extrapolate on a print the width across the main beams if that was to be doubled by the addition of two beams and can't help but feel that would then look too wide. It would be perfect if the original undoctored photograph was still to be in existence but I guess that would be highly unlikely. Perhaps one day we might be lucky enough to unearth another photograph to confirm.
Bunkerbarge
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Dave, I just wanted to mention that I received the new Peter Tatlow book yesterday "The L&NER Delivers the Goods" and thank you for the advice. It really is an interesting book with some superb ideas for loads. A train of ship's lifeboats for instance!
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billbedford
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by billbedford »

Dave wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:02 pm FLATROL AA.

I have been intrigued by the apparent discrepancy between the photograph of the Flatrol AA 235318
and the diagrams in the LNER diagram book and the British Railways diagram books. I had found some
information regarding the wagons history which I posted on here, and concluded the Flatrol had 2
body beams and the diagrams was possibly incorrect, on the assumption that photographs don't lie.
The wooden beams were detachable, so the number used would depend on the load to be carried.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa-models.co.uk
jwealleans
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by jwealleans »

I think Dave was referring to the longitudinal steel body members: on the photograph posted, labelled 'Plate 248', it does rather look as though two of them have been whited out.

You are of course entirely correct, Bill, about the timber beams; reading Peter Tatlow's new book this morning I see a picture of a load slung between a pair of timber beams which he says has been lifted bodily from the rail wagon and placed between two road bogies for final delivery.

(Edit) - looked at the book again last night - it's actually a pair of steel beams from the Transformer set, but I had everything else right.
Last edited by jwealleans on Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
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Re: Weltrol and Flatrol Wagons

Post by Dave »

Bill I was refering to the main wagon body steel beams not the 2 detachable timber beams.
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