NER Building colours

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Graeme Leary
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NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

I am in the process of repainting various buildings on my layout into, as accurately as possible, correct NER colours.

A thread I came across 5 or 6 years ago (www.stationcolours.info) states paints for NER modellers is Prestige Paints' 'SR Building Cream' for the cream/buff main colour and Tamiya's 'Red Brown' for the contrast.

We cannot get Prestige in New Zealand but I have a suitable alternative, however the Tamiya 'Red Brown' suggested (XF64) seems to be too 'brown' when compared with actual colour photos I have of ex NER buildings ( a good example is the Hexham gantry/signal cabin).

I have therefore tried Tamiya's 'Dull Red' which whilst much redder does look closer to the colour photo examples I have.

Has any forum member gone through this process and can assist with some ideas (bearing in mind Tamiya and to a lesser extent Humbrol are the products readily available here).

Many thanks.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand
mr B
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by mr B »

Graeme Leary
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks mrB. This was the thread I referred to but I will double check the photo you mention in The Big Four in Colour (how I missed this I don't know as it is a frequent reference book I use).

Graeme Leary
65447
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by 65447 »

The North Eastern Record Volume 1 describes the colours but, unfortunately, gives the colour matching by reference to Methuen, which is unhelpful.

Apparently there were no actual specifications but colour plates found in the Miscellaneous Book of Standards 1910, which in themselves varied in different representations. The text gives references to the Methuen colour samples, which may have been readily available in 1978, that being the year of publication of both the Methuen and the NERA volume, but are not at all well known today. Methuen contains a massive range of colours, hues, shades, and temperatures against which a colour can be matched and hence referenced. However there is not any easy further reference to an actual paint or Pantone colour that is meaningful. You may be able to access a copy of Methuen in a reference library but it will not provide a real-world paint match.

For the record, the 'Cream' is reckoned to be Methuen 3A3, a pale yellow with variations from warm to cool, with the suggestion to match to manufactured cream paint or add mid-yellow to white, whilst the 'Buff' is reckoned to be Methuen 4A5, but not the usual dull yellow associated with the name but rather a strong warm colour, with a suggestion to add a slight touch of mid-red to light buff. Additionally, 'Chocolate' is reckoned to be Methuen 8E8, a warm-reddish-brown but with lighter and darker variants, with the suggestion to mix mid-red with a lesser quantity of chocolate brown.

The Appendix goes on to describe the uses and variable applications of the three colours.

I have your e-mail address so will scan the page and send to you.

As to matches, at that time only a few railway companies were ordering pre-mixed paints, the GWR being one, so the colours were mixed as required and matched to samples, so will inevitably vary slightly when new and even more so once weathered, where red elements in particular will lose their richness.

One helpful website is www.e-paint.co.uk which allows you to search paint charts including BS, DIN, RAL, US, and Australian specification as well as Pantone, but not model paints such as Tamiya, Humbrol, Vallejo and similar. The BS381C and Other Colours (discontinued BS381C) charts will give the closest approximations, as many of these were formalised versions of those paint colours already in use by British railways, government departments and utilities prior to 1930.

Although risky comparing colours in photographs with colour charts, and doing so via an intermediary medium such as a computer monitor, you may find something sufficiently close to your requirements. The three colour blocks on the ww.stationcolours.info/london-north-eastern-railway/ website might be as good a guide as any, but please be aware that the recommended SR Cream was a strong yellow shade of cream, much richer than that used by other constituents such as the GNR and subsequently the LNER.
Graeme Leary
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

Many thanks 65447 - I have 3 different Tamiya red/brown tones so the page you describe might help me determine which is the most suitable. I do realise however that as colours were mixed in different places some variations were inevitable. All very helpful.

Merry Christmas,

Graeme
Graeme Leary
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

Having a closer look at this topic I now realise I may have been 'taken in' by some of the photos available of, in particular, gantry signal boxes.

Wylam is a very good example as the many photos on-line (eg Wikipedia & others) of this box, along with Hexham show them both as a very definite 'red', rather than a reddish brown and which is nothing like the Tamiya 'Red Brown' (XF-64) recommended in the 'www.stationcolours.info' postings'. Further reading tells me that both Hexham and Wylam are Grade 2 Listed Buildings and could it be that the people who look after these types of buildings in fact don't do their homework, going instead for a 'pleasing' colour, rather than an accurate colour? I'd be interested in any thoughts on this.

Despite initially looking for a more reddish brown I've now repainted 3 or 4 buildings in Tamiya's XF64 which despite being named 'Red Brown' is in fact much more brown and contrasted with Humbrol's 71 looks closer to other NER photos I've managed to dig up.

This is even more interesting now as I'm cobbling together a variation of the Wylam box, using a Wills kit as a base, but cutting it back to give a more 'squarish' look as the Wylam (and Hexham) pics show. Will also be replacing the 'mock' metal legs with the stone supports either side, which I've only really noticed since delving more into this colour issue.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand
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Dave
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Dave »

Graeme.

You mention "Prestige Paints" I assume you mean Phoenix Precision Paints.

On listed buildings and painting them, this may help explain the English planning laws.

You don't need Listed Building Consent to change the external colour of a listed building or its windows and doors unless you would like to:

A:Change the finish type from lime wash to masonry paint
B:Paint a surface that has not been painted before
C:Change the colour of the building where it would affect the listed building's special interest or character

The local authority will then decide if the proposed change of colour is acceptable.
So people/organisations can't just go for a pleasing colour.

What actually defines a listed property?

Properties are generally given their status because they are considered to be architecturally significant or interesting in some way.
There are several types of listing, exceptional buildings can be given grade 1 status but 92% of listed buildings in the UK are grade 2 (or in some cases 2* for really significant examples). All properties built post 1700 that retain original features are given listed status with the majority of listed buildings dating between 1700 and 1840.

The traditional view of a listed building is often of a fine country house or a thatched cottage, a building doesn’t have to be beautiful to be listed. Park Hill flats in Sheffield, a brutal and imposing 1960’s development, listed because of its architectural significance as a social project. Listed city centre buildings are also in abundance, especially in places like older victorian industrial cities. Modern projects aren’t completely exempt of listed status, but generally, listed buildings are more than 30 years old.

Can you renovate a grade 2 listed building

It’s illegal to seriously alter a listed building without consent from the local planning authority and the consequences of carrying out work without permission can cost thousands in fines and restoration costs. Generally anything other than simple repairs is likely to require listed building consent.

I hope that helps you understand the planning system and how it relates to painting.

I assume you have the NERA book NER Record vol 1 and have read it, it states cream letters on chocolate panel, but this was not universal, see page 27.
Colour as we all know ages in sunlight and in the conditions of a dirty smokey environment. So I would say any colour you think is suitable will do and remember knowbody is alive today who saw it newly painted.
Graeme Leary
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks Dave, mea cupla - indeed it should be 'Precision', not Prestige.

And no, I don't have the NERA Record Vol 1 - but maybe should add this to my 'library' - must buy list. I will consult with my learned colleagues in 15 minutes or thereabouts to see what they think about uses this may have.

Graeme
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Dave
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Dave »

Evening Graeme.
I think we all agreed you should get Vol 1 and 2, vol 3 would not be that useful to you.
Graeme Leary
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

Since I started this thread I have been trying a few variations to achieve a 'truer' rendition of the Chocolate colour as defined in "NE Record Vol 1' kindly sent to me by 65447. This defines Chocolate as 'a warm reddish brown (Methuen 8E8) with lighter and darker variations'. The Tamiya 'Red Brown (XF64) as recommended in the 'www.stationcolours' link for modellers does appear 'too' brown but Tamiya's 'Hull Red' XF-9 looks closer to the definition and the buildings I have repainted the chocolate details using Hull Red seem closer to the definition (as well as colour photos I've managed to locate - including that quoted in 'The Big Foyur In Colour').

I had noted this in the other thread I am currently running on the forum (Wylam Gantry Signal Box) but this info above might be of interest to any not following the other thread.

Graeme Leary

PS: Dave, have NE Record Vol 2 confirmed and just waiting a reply from the UK re Vol 2.
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Dave
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Dave »

That's good Graeme you will find it very helpful I hope you manage to get vol 1.
Graeme Leary
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Re: NER Building colours

Post by Graeme Leary »

Vol 1 just confirmed from James Hudson, Matlock Dave - hopefully therefore a few less queries for you and others.

Graeme
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