GNR Ivatt Railmotor Diagram or rebuilt twinset diagrams request

[60114 W.P Allen]

Hi all
Does anyone happen to have a diagram of either the GNR railmotor or the rebuilt twinsets, I'm slowly planning a hybrid layout of Horncastle mixed with Falmouth's Pendennis castle and a hit of Australia (VR Bacchus Marsh Signal box and a NSWGR loco shed)
Recently brought the Sonic models A5 and looking to scratch build the twinset that was used on the Horncastle branch, not that I scratch built much so far other then a project that is seeing me convert a LNER B12 into a Robinson GCR Class 1 utilising a static D11 as a parts donor
Alternatively is there any kits out there of the carriages?

Best Wishes to all
Michael Allen

[jwealleans]

Nick Easton has done etches for the Horncastle Branch twin set: Atlantic 3279 will have his contact details.

John Coffin is probably your man for railmotor information.

[Atlantic 3279]

Nick Easton's contact details have never come into my possession, but I know who will have them. Try Mr "LNER 4479", most frequently on RMWeb (try "Hills of the North" topic or "Grantham the Streamliner Years") and less frequently on here.

[Hatfield Shed]

Photos of the steam railcar sets, original dimensions, and an appendix with the sketchiest sketch plan of the conversion of the coach bodies to articulated units; in the RCTS 'Great Northern Locomotive History vol 3A' by N Groves. Lots of cautionary notes about the lack of source information on design and construction of the Steam Railcars, the photos make clear that both the loco and coach sections of these sets were not of consistent appearance.

[Atlantic 3279]

I'd forgotten about that set of sketches and notes in Groves. It's a shame that the carriages in the sketch, like those drawn in Campling's LNER carriages book, are the type with the high Gresley roof. I believe the Horncastle set had the lower roofs, and as already mentioned the sides would have had little or nothing in common for the three different manufacturers' types of Railmotor.

Now I honestly haven't looked recently, but I'm wondering whether the converted twin for the Horncastle branch is included as one of the brake composite diagrams (218**?) in the GN carriage diagram book.

Correction 6/11/23: It would perhaps be the LNER diagram book, as the conversions took place after grouping.

[UpDistant]

Isinglass do a drawing for GN218WW (Cat No 671) - this is the one rebuilt from Railmotors 7 and 8, later 44141/44142. This one was that used on the Essendine-Bourne service, then it started to wander. The GN218WW diagram also included the rebuild of Railmotors 5 and 6, later 44161/44162 (the Horncastle set). Without having to rummage in my round-tuit cupboard, I can't remember offhand whether Nick provided a drawing with the etches.

HTH

[john coffin]

As Jonathan knows,
I have been working on the whole story of the Ivatt Railmotor, and there are absolutely no GA's of the Kitson and Avonside
locos and carriages that I have found. Certainly neither the Birmingham Carriage Company, nor the Bristol Coach company
records seem to be easily accessible. Whilst so far no one has pointed me toward any surviving records of the loco
builders. It would be useful to find out if anyone knows of any part of them are available.

They were built in 3 pairs of loco and carriage, but even then it is not sure that they were the same within the pairs.
Carriage 2 was built first, and was the first known Gresley carriage, Carriage 1 was built second, and they were different.
They had differeng internal layouts, and thus different window styles. They did however have the too be common Gresley
Elliptical roof.

Carriage 5/6 and 7/8 according to Groves had elliptical rooves, however, subject to finding a drawing, all the photos seem
to show that they were Howlden style flatter rooves.

There is one partial drawing of the Doncaster built locos at the NRM plus a partial carriage drawing. However there are
certainly no underframe drawings to hand. SO far as said, no drawings to hand of 5/6 or 7/8 locos.
Whilst the spec was probably the same, the interpretation was somewhat different. Smokebox supports, and also side sheets
by the cab, plus the boiler cover were not the same as the Doncaster ones. However, again with no reference points it
is difficult to know how different they were.

The Horncastle set was the carriages from 5/6 but they were not a straight conversion, at least one extra compartment was
added to the length.

Whilst NIck Campling's cartriage book is helpful, there are a number of errors within it, and it only covers carriages 1/2.

HTH
Paul

[swhite01]

While looking through the NRM York, Doncaster drawing list for another topic this afternoon I came across the entries below on Roll 066B:

Drg No 5028 N 21/11/1924 Twin Composite Brake (Nos 7 & 8 Steam Rail Motors converted) 5028.N** Body; F Wintour 28/11/1924; Nos 44141/2; 8’-0” bogies
Drg No 5532 N 17/08/1926 Twin Composite Brake (Nos 1 & 2 Steam Motor Coaches converted) 5532.N** Body; Nos 44151/2 renumbered 82370/1; 8’-0” bogies Carriage body
Drg No 5533 N 09/06/1926 Twin Composite Brake (Nos 5 & 6 Steam Motor Coaches converted) 5533.N** Body; Nos 44161/2; 8’-0” bogies Carriage body

I am assuming these will be GA drawings for the twin sets so would provide carriage layouts and side panelling, the are are no underframes on this Roll.

Hope this is of help

Steve

www.gnrsociety.com

[Dave]

Steve.
I can confirm drawing 5028N does show the interior layout (plan) plus a side elevation and a part section/end elevation.
5532N the same but has a half elevation of an end and an intermediate end.
5533N shows the same as 5028N.
No underframe details on any of the drawings.

[swhite01]

Dave,
Thanks for your note and confirming the content of the drawings. I couldn’t see any underframe drawings around the same time period on the drawing list,
Many thanks
Steve

[john coffin]

Thanks for that update Steve and Dave.

I rarely, if ever go so late in checking the Doncaster list, so had not seen those drawings.
It would be interesting to see how they reinforced the carriage to allow the extending
at the driver's compartment end, since my understanding is that they added at least one
extra compartment on at least one pair of rebuilt carriages.

Paul

[Dave]

Paul.
The drawings according to my notes do not show any structural details.