Original nameplate colour for “Coronation” A4s

[Golden Eagle]

As Hornby have passed up the opportunity to complement the forthcoming Coronation carriages with 4488 Union of South Africa in her original livery, I seem to be heading towards renumbering, renaming and rebadging Empire of India…

Fox Transfers do numbers, crests and nameplates, offering the latter with red, black and “crimson lake” backgrounds. They state that the original nameplates on the Coronation A4s were crimson, matching the wheels. The relevant RCTS “Green Book”, however, states that nameplates were originally black, with the “Special” (Silver Jubilee and Coronation) A4s changing to light red in 1938 and certain others following suit thereafter.
Hornby’s models of 4490 and 4491 in Garter Blue with steel numbering both have red nameplates, matching the lining rather than the wheels.

Does anyone know the correct answer or could you suggest another resource which might provide a definitive answer?

[Atlantic 3279]

Have you seen and read this topic?
https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic. ... 55#p135055

"Advanced searches" via the top-right gear wheel symbol may reveal other similar past topics.

[Golden Eagle]

Have you seen and read this topic?
https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic. ... 55#p135055

"Advanced searches" via the top-right gear wheel symbol may reveal other similar past topics.

I had indeed. As far as I could tell, the conclusion was...inconclusive. And if one accepts "red" as the answer, is it red to match linings (as Hornby produce) or crimson to match wheels (as Fox suggest).

I thought the thread was nicely summarised by the first paragraph of the final post:
"It is an issue which time and extreme determination may start to unravel. But you may find several threads even on this forum which come to no firm conclusions. In fact they confuse in many respects."

In truth, I missed the suggestion of the Gresley Observer. However...Fox are confident enough of their claim to have made crimson nameplates. I wonder if they'll be kind enough to share their source...

(And, ultimately, I suspect "Rule One" can be applied regardless!)

[jwealleans]

Fox are confident enough of their claim to have made crimson nameplates.

Because someone will have commissioned them to do so. I'm afraid my experience with Fox is that they have little in depth knowledge of prototypes and simply produce what they're asked to. They do three different combinations of yellow/gold black.brown shaded LNER lettering when only two ever existed. They also produced a lining pack for the B2 and B17 with a single cabside panel when the cabs were very different shapes.

No aspersions on the quality of their product, but their 'research' is not to be trusted.

FWIW I think the nameplates were a shade of red - which one you go for is down to personal preference. There's no definitive evidence, as this thread confirms, so who can confidently tell you you're wrong?

[Seagull]

Some time ago I went through everything I could find regarding the nameplate colours.

As mentioned there does not seem to be any conclusive evidence either way of what colours were used pre-war or when.

However some things did stand out.

All the publicity material around the time of the launch of the Coronation train shows black backgrounds on the plates.
Also the very popular cigarette cards from the time showed black, though most if not all of those would be based on LNER publicity material.
There was one reference I saw that said the plates were changed to red later but no date or evidence was provided.

The first plates where red is mentioned as the background seem to be those fitted to 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley and I think it is RCTS green book that then says the other engines named after directors 'also had red backgrounds'.

Regarding the two West Riding engines Golden Fleece and Golden Shuttle. The publicity material shows black but a contemporary cigarette card shows red. There was one reference that suggested the plates were changed to red so maybe the cigarette card showed the later colour.
I saw one cigarette card featuring the Golden Plover, the spare West Riding engine and this showed black plates.

Regarding the shade of red.
I suspect that the red used for the plates would be some sort of enamel and probably of a better quality than that used on the wheels, so yes possibly nearer the lining colour.
Also note that the wheels were cast steel and the plates brass or chrome plated. Even if the same paint was used, the different material types and texture, any primer colour and any varnish applied would all tend to subtly alter the apparent shade.

Alan

EDIT:-

Managed to find the pdf copy of the green book;-
'but from about 1938 the "special" A4's (ie. Nos. 2509-12, 4488-92/5/6) had theirs changed to light red.'

So suggesting black for the Coronation and WR engines originally and red (I guess) when each went to works in 1938 or onwards.

It mentions that 4498, 69, 99 and 4500 were changed in 1939 when they also received stainless steel numbers and tender letters. So 4498 was probably not red from new.

Alan

[Kestrel]

Talking about the Coronation A4s that Hornby have brought out, R3992 Commonwealth of Australia and R3993 Empire of India, has anyone noticed the incorrect font used on the nameplates, Surely after paying £200 for something, you expect it to be correct.

[Richard i]

There is a colour film of an a4 in lner days and the red is much closer to wheel colour. In br days the red was nearer buffer beam red. Only have that one colour image to go off for lner red.
Richard

[Kestrel]

Hornby’s models of 4490 and 4491 in Garter Blue with steel numbering both have red nameplates, matching the lining rather than the wheels.

The Hornby models referred to do not have steel numbering and LNER lettering, it's just silver paint as is the edging on the valance. I spoke to TMC and they said they could do the numbers and letters in etching but not the valance edging.

[Albert Hill]

Name plates were normally cast in Darlington.