Micks 4mm LNER Models

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mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

The old Geo Norton etched kit J25 , finished and running in.

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Tidy result. Persistence pays off?
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

Beaten into submission !!! :shock:
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manna
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Very nice, can't beat a good 0-6-0.

manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
mick b
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

Cheers
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Chas Levin
NBR D34 4-4-0 'Glen'
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by Chas Levin »

mick b wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:33 am Chas
In case you are not aware.
Cut the Clerestory glazing to size before you place the top small roof onto the main roof. It would be a devil of a job to cut once the roof is finished, access is very tight once built and painted.

Mick
Good point Mick, but in fact, as Jonathan suggests, I'll go for detachable. I've only built one clerestory coach to date - the D&S ECJS Luggage Brake - and that's what I did there, by adding brass cross pieces to the clerestory with captive bolts projecting down through holes in the main roof (which was a full width brass roof that I made myself, to replace the plastic one in the kit) so that nuts could be - gently - tightened up inside the main roof and hold the clerestory firmly in place. It meant quite a lot of extra work I grant you, but I thought it made glazing and painting the clerestory much easier.
So you've used a two part main roof with a central gap running along under the clerestory? It clearly works well - the coach looks excellent. And the N8 cab looks beautiful :)
Chas
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3727
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

Chas
My suggestion re making up the Clerestory glazing first still applies, whatever way you actually fit the roof to the body. It is all very tight , there is hardly any space approx 3mm high. The roof has cross sections , the clerestory windows on this one, has four seperate pieces cut either side of the cross sections.
I can see the logic behind plastic roofs being fitted by adding screws, however there is the possibility of the plastic warping over time?. I see no advantage on a brass roof Coach. Once soldered on , it gives more strength to the body, and no gaps due to poor fit/assembly and its easier to paint.

The Dia 5 is now finished , I will post some more photos in due course.


cheers

Mick
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Chas Levin
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by Chas Levin »

mick b wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:10 am Chas
My suggestion re making up the Clerestory glazing first still applies, whatever way you actually fit the roof to the body. It is all very tight , there is hardly any space approx 3mm high. The roof has cross sections , the clerestory windows on this one, has four seperate pieces cut either side of the cross sections.
I can see the logic behind plastic roofs being fitted by adding screws, however there is the possibility of the plastic warping over time?. I see no advantage on a brass roof Coach. Once soldered on , it gives more strength to the body, and no gaps due to poor fit/assembly and its easier to paint.

The Dia 5 is now finished , I will post some more photos in due course.


cheers

Mick
Hello Mick, sorry if I expressed myself badly: everything on the main roof and the clerestory on mine is brass. The clerestory itself is an etch that's part of the kit, but the main (lower) roof in the kit was plastic and I replaced that with a brass one, so the bolting is holding a brass clerestory on top of a brass main roof - hope that's clearer?
I fully agree about plastic warping over time, which was another reaosn why I made the replacement brass roof.
And I did indeed cut out the glazing before making the clerestory, when the etch was still flat. However, I left it out until after I'd painted the clerestory and it certainly was very fiddly to fit it.
The extra strength argument is very true but I think that's more relevant where you have a central opening running up the middle of the main (lower) roof, isn't it? The way I did it, that main lower roof is solid brass for the whole span so it already makes a very strong box with the brass sides.
I'm very pleased I did proper glazing - as I'm sure you are too: when you look at coaches with glazed clerestories side-on, the light reflects off the glazing and makes it look a whole lot better than clerestories that are either unglazed or that have blanked out openings.
Chas
mick b
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

Chas
Yes much clearer now,how you make them. When I finally!! get the top windows for my last outstanding Coach a Dia 14 all third, I will post a picture of the built Worsley roof etch before I add it to the D&S body. That will make it clearer why the Worsley Roof are normally soldered on as well.

Re the "shiny" top glazing , mine are varnished matt at the same time as the body/roof (see my earlier photo). The NER fitted etched glass Clerestory top windows, white with patterns. I am not that clever and matt finish has to do on mine.


Mick
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Chas Levin
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by Chas Levin »

Thanks Mick, I'll be interested to see the Worsley etch / D&S pics to see how they work together, Chas
Chas
Daddyman
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by Daddyman »

Mick, I'm afraid that like so many others you've fallen victim to the D&S instructions when doing your clerestory roofs. Please don't take this the wrong way - I'm sorry to be telling you once you have finished the model, and I did consider sending this to you as a private message so as not to embarrass you; but then I thought it would benefit others as well, so I'm posting in public.

According to the instructions, Dan at D&S got advice on the carriages from the NERA. However, there seems to have been little interest at the time within the NERA in NER vehicles after the grouping - witness Ken Hoole's NER Locos with not a single LNER or BR photo in it, and Record 2 with no mention of what happened to the carriages after they were built. Record 2 says only (p.44) "Incandescent burners were introduced in 1908 which improved the standard of lighting and reduced the consumption of gas by over 50% and some of the lamps and tanks were removed." However, no clarification nor illustration is ever offered of what is meant by the phrase "some of the lamps and tanks were removed". But it has a major impact on our models.

Incandescent lighting was a major boon for railway companies, as it was very much more efficient than the previous gas system (over 50% as said above), and was therefore in the companies' interests to switch tout de suite. What this means is that no carriage in the 1930s (and I haven't seen any in the 1920s, though many of the photos in Ken Hoole's books are undated) would have roof and underframe fittings for gas lighting as instructed in the D&S kits, but rather for incandescent gas lighting. That means:

(a) no lamp "hoods" and no gas feeds on the roof proper either side of the clerestory, (vents only), though in rare cases one or two compartments seem to have kept the hoods; [EDIT: I think this may have to do with the position of toilets.]
(b) filler pips and gas feed line in the clerestory roof (these pips are top-hat shaped, with a very fine flange - or "brim" to the hat - with the protruding pip being four and five-eighths of an inch, according to G.M Sewell in NBR Coaches: A Design Review, published by the NBR Study Group, p.48);
(c) (as far as I can see from photos) only one gas tank on the underframe.

As said, it was in the companies' interests to make the change as quickly as possible, and you can actually see the changeover happening during WW1 in Ken Hoole's North Eastern Branch Line Termini on p.68: there's a BTP with two Diagram 116 autotrailers, the nearest one having been converted but the further one not. The H.C Casserley photo of Kirkby Stephen on the cover of Bradford Barton's LNER Steam offers a rare view of carriage roofs (and an even rarer one of a carriage end - I suspect the vac pipes were almost always on the RHS at both ends when the carriage was looked at head-on) in LNER days and confirms the observations above.

All of this is explained in my articles written in the NERA Express over the past 6 months. (I thought you and Jonathan were perhaps members?) Attached is a photo showing my model of one of the aforementioned Diagram 116s showing some of the changes made by the LNER.
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Last edited by Daddyman on Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3727
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

David
I presume you are taking about the Autocoach only? Mine is the god awful Langley kit, and was built as per the kit instructions. As you have said there is very little information about their appearance.
At least one other has been built the same way as mine.I actually referred to those pictures as there was nothing else I could find at the time of building. Mine will stay as it is , due to way the kit is designed you would have to destroy it to make any changes. I presume yours is the D&S version which I have never ever seen for sale.

https://highlandmiscellany.com/tag/nort ... n-railway/

There is a poor HMRS photo on their site of the Autocoach x 2 with a BTP , showing what looks like ventilators etc fitted to the roof , I just tried to view and its not available at moment due to lockdown.

Mine has the handrail on the clerestory roof fitted. It does'nt show very well in the photos. Vents and Lamps as supplied by Langley . I was'nt aware of any other source of castings at the time. I now use Mike Trice's 3d printed versions ( see my others recent Coach builds) bought via a very expensive Shapeways site.

I am not a current member of the NERA . I was a member 10 or more years ago, There was very little at the time therein relating to modelling. Has it changed at all ?.

cheers

Mick
Daddyman
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Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by Daddyman »

mick b wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:37 pm David
I presume you are taking about the Autocoach only? [...] At least one other has been built the same way as mine.

I am not a current member of the NERA . I was a member 10 or more years ago, There was very little at the time therein relating to modelling. Has it changed at all ?.

cheers

Mick
No, Mick, all NER clerestories by the mid-1920s had the roof as I describe: as said, railway companies wanted to get rid of gas-only lighting ASAP and on to incandescent gas, so changed all carriages. The Highland Miscellany one (Mark Tatlow's) was built for an NER-era layout, so is probably (just) right with gas-only (as opposed to incandescent gas) roof fittings (I'm not sure the period of the layout).

As for your photo of two D116s with a BTP, that could not have been later than the late 1920s (almost certainly before, and in NER days), so the roofs may well be in the earlier format; in any case, roofs always had vents - it's hoods that were removed.

Regarding the NERA and modelling, well, what's changed is that muggings here has been press-ganged into producing a model each issue...
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3727
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

Its not a problem re the Gas fittings , as my Autocoach is pulled by a BTP , which had all gone by 1929 anyway.
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3727
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: Micks 4mm LNER Models

Post by mick b »

Final etches arrived for a Dia 14 All 3rd Clerestory Roof . Some photos of the build.
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Just needs 3d printed Vents and Gas Lamps, Paint and Glazing to finish.
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