Atlantic's works: ECJS 12 wheel clerestory dining cars

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JASd17
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by JASd17 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:14 pm

earlswood nob wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:25 am
Returning to the good looking carriage; the restaurant car probably started with gas for lighting and cooking. I wouldn't think that the LNER would change to electric lighting and leave gas cooking. It wouldn't appeal to the LNER's restricted budget.

Earlswood Nob
On what evidence can you base that comment EN?

Actually, the cooking did stay gas and, in many cases, the lighting was changed to electricity.


What I can say for certain is that Graeme's D79 is a very crisp casting. I have seen and held it today. It is going to make a very fine model.


John

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by earlswood nob » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:26 am

Good morning all

I was merely applying logical thought as I saw it, Jas.

The drawings that I have of clerestory stock all show gas tanks, and there is nothing in the notes about changing to electric lighting.

It certainly is a great looking coach, and I'm tempted to try something similar. If I can produce something half as good, I'd be happy.

Now to continue the Sunday morning detox, by building a couple of wagons.

Earlswood Nob (a signal box close to where I grew up)

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:43 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:45 am
Around 1902 I notice new vehicles had longer leaf springs over the axleboxes with the inner ends of the springs apparently linked up by what appear to be compensating or equalising levers.
I now know this to be a misinterpretation born of ignorance :oops: . They do not appear to have been action-linking levers between those long springs. They appear instead to simply be bearers to allow the longer leaf springs to fit the bogie in a satisfactory way. The use of the longest possible leaf springs would appear to have put the ends of those springs too close together to suit use of the normal type of spring hangers. The problem seems to have been solved by using a steel bridging piece across the gaps between the brackets or lugs for the original type of short springs (with the usual rubber block or coil spring below each end of the bridge), the ends of the longer leaf springs being connected by separate vertical rods extending down to points near the middle of each bridge.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by john coffin » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:36 am

Worth noting that R&W Hawthorn patented a locomotive and rolling stock compensating or equalising lever system in
the 1840-50's.

I am not sure that any of the Fox 6 wheeled bogies I have studied ever had a fore and aft equalising lever,
although it is possible they may have had cross wise ones.

Paul

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:10 am

Although there are lots of unanswered questions at present about the bogies and underframe fittings for the 1930s period for my restaurant car I've had further generous offers of assistance both with research and with actual parts for the model. I've also wondered, after further study of the Isinglass drawing, whether I should delete one of the toilet windows and fit plain panelling in that area.
With those matters pending, or on-hold at present, I've been creating the necessary internal partitions, producing some possible basic master parts for GN retractable buffers, and trying to create some seats of a suitable style.
With three published photographs to hand, one showing the interior of an ECJS Doncaster-built 12 wheeled clerestory first class diner, two showing different styles of interiors for two GNR third class 12 wheeled clerestory diners, I had some guidance. Free on-line computer colourisation of those views gave some further ideas, but no proof of colour of course. Comparison of the photos with the style of seats partly apparent in plan views of the interior of my chosen vehicle as drawwn in the Hoole ECJS book and in the Isinglass diagram seemed to indicate that the simpler of the two photographed styles of seats for the third class section would be appropriate. That was relief - easier to make! They would also relate more logically to the only style guide I had for the first class seating. More later perhaps......
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:53 pm

One thing I've had a go at is the addition of some more detail to the blanked-off end windows that I had portrayed only very basically in my earlier resin castings, trying microstrip to improve the details. The trouble is, that this may move the windows closer to the as-built, glazed appearance, but I don't really know how they looked on this vehicle if and when they were blanked off, nor do I know if the vehicle got fully rebuilt plain panelled ends in the later Gresley style! Those moulded plugs and cables may be wrong too if these vehicles did not get converted to electric lighting.....
STA71232s.jpg
STA71235s.jpg
Here's the partitioned interior, according to the drawing in the Hoole book and that showing original layout in the Isinglass range. I've stuck most of the partitions to the floor, to ensure I get the seats in compatible places, but two of them instead are fixed to the detachable sides/roof/ends unit to help to keep the sides straight. They all serve the additional purpose of preventing the underframe of the model from warping upwards amidships into the space within the coach body.
STA71236s.jpg
If the additional part-view of the floor plan on the Isinglass drawing shows what I think it may show in connection with the Isinglass notes about removal of one toilet and substitution of a cupboard, then it may be that for my 1930s model the end of one of the sides needs to change from this...
STA71237s.jpg
...to this:
STA71237alts.jpg
Easier to mock up in a photo than to change on the model, but certainly possible, if necessary for correctness.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:14 pm

The only pieces of coach seating I had to hand were the remnants of some originally longer, injection moulded seat strips bought perhaps 15 years ago at an exhibition. I cannot remember the supplier or maker, but if anybody recognises the stuff I'm curious to know.
STA71240s.jpg
This was clearly only suitable, as it was, for long bench-type seating in compartments, but after cutting it carefully into square-edged pieces, of appropriate widths, adding bits of plasticard, filing to shape and further blending in with generous amounts of brushed-on solvent, I managed to create something that was at least generally similar to the seat shapes I could deduce from photographs and drawings.

Single, wide first class dining seat (for sumptuously upholstered occupants?)
STA71241s.jpg
Double, narrower seats for one side of the aisle to suit third class diners
STA71242s.jpg
Same parts separated to serve as single dining seats for thirds on the other side of the aisle (a little additional rounding of one top corner will be needed)
STA71244s.jpg
While I had also been working on an adaptation to some old turned carriage buffers with large round heads to try to represent the oval-headed, retracted form of the GN retractable carriage buffer, as shown below, I've now received a better image of one of these, and a couple of drawings, which suggest to me that if I'm going to make my own I really need to start these again.....
STA71248s.jpg
STA71250s.jpg
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by mick b » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:02 am

Excellent Graeme, have you looked at the Southern Pride range of seats ? I have used them and are good quality and price.

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:35 am

Thanks Mick,

I have no idea of what the Southern Pride seats look like, how to go about getting them and how long that might take, hence the DIY approach. If they are appropriate, good, economical and easy to get I would certainly consider them in future.


I now wonder if my original seat strips from n years ago came from Colin Ashby. Does anybody think that might be right?
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by jwealleans » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:49 am

They might be. They look the same shape as the ones Coopercraft used to offer, but the sprue arrangement is different.

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:29 am

I recall on one occasion at least seeing several different sizes and profiles on the same display, and having to take care to select the same one that I had previously used. I think the double strips I used were about 4" long with sprue linking them at about 1" intervals....

Not the most pressing issue facing the nation at present anyway.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by john coffin » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:48 pm

Nice work again Graeme,
however, I think the 3rd class seats are much too comfortable compared
with the original. Any details I have seen of the third class dining seats
in Clerestory carriages have shown seats more like Louis 15th seats,
with oval backs and wooden sides rather than the more plush 1sts.

Am looking for the best image I can find to post.

However, since few people will see the seats as the carriage is whizzing round
at Grantham in the 1930's they will certainly fill the window view.

Overall it is looking really good, well done.

Have you checked properly about the position of the ventilators
because many had them on the side of the Clerestory.

Paul

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by mick b » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:50 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:35 am
Thanks Mick,

I have no idea of what the Southern Pride seats look like, how to go about getting them and how long that might take, hence the DIY approach. If they are appropriate, good, economical and easy to get I would certainly consider them in future.


I now wonder if my original seat strips from n years ago came from Colin Ashby. Does anybody think that might be right?

Graeme.

Have a look at their webpage.

http://www.southernpridemodels.co.uk/

Items come normally in about a week.

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by earlswood nob » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:42 pm

Afternoon all

The seating sprues remind me of those supplied with the Kirk(Mailcoach) Silver Jubilee set, which I am playing with (very slowly).

I have used Southern Pride seating for the interiors. The first class compartment seating (coaches A & B), has been made by filing the ends off a double seat with wings, and filing the wings off one side of two single seats with wings. The three pieces can then be assembled in one wide double seat.

You could use a similar method to make wide single seats; two single seats with wings filed off one one side and glued together.

I am really enjoying this thread, and it's giving me so many ideas.

Earlswood nob

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:30 pm

john coffin wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:48 pm
Nice work again Graeme,
however, I think the 3rd class seats are much too comfortable compared
with the original. Any details I have seen of the third class dining seats
in Clerestory carriages have shown seats more like Louis 15th seats,
with oval backs and wooden sides rather than the more plush 1sts.

Am looking for the best image I can find to post.

However, since few people will see the seats as the carriage is whizzing round
at Grantham in the 1930's they will certainly fill the window view.

Overall it is looking really good, well done.

Have you checked properly about the position of the ventilators
because many had them on the side of the Clerestory.

Paul
I've seen those fairly ornate oval backed seats in one image, with additional dividers between the seating bays above the seat backs, and was put off by the complexity. The third class seats I've attempted to match appear in a captioned view of a "GN dining third" interior in FAS Brown's book "From Stirling to Gresley", complete with floral fabric upholstery which the on-line colourising programme considered to be dull red. The 2 +1 seating, tables and fairly plain internal wooden trim seem to support the idea that it really is a third class vehicle.
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