Atlantic's works: ECJS 12 wheel clerestory dining cars

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:33 pm

mick b wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:50 pm

Graeme.

Have a look at their webpage.

http://www.southernpridemodels.co.uk/

Items come normally in about a week.
Thanks Mick, my own quick search earlier today failed to find anything like that. I must have been half asleep.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by mick b » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:18 pm

:shock: :shock: :D :D

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by JASd17 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:02 pm

Graeme,

Make sure you remove the correct toilet. The D79s were all down to one toilet cubicle well before Grouping.

John

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:08 pm

I see what you mean - if the Isinglass diagram has it right. In my haste to get things posted up yesterday I reversed the arrangement in my mind and in my photo-mock up!
Should be more like the change indicated in these (now reversed) images, which of course wrongly suggest doors opening the other way:
STA71237s.jpg
STA71237alts.jpg
I note too the possibility that ventilators were on the clerestory sides instead of (or as well as) on top. Having only the photograph of one D79 as built, Hoole's basic drawing, and the Isinglass diagram showing no change to the original "top plus sides" layout to the vents in LNER condition, I'd need good evidence to persuade me to remove the top vents.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Dave » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:23 am

Great work as usual Graeme.

These pics may be of use to you, I will email you a drawing.
Attachments
GNR BUFFER small (1).jpg
GNR BUFFER small (2).jpg
GNR BUFFER small (3).jpg

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am

Thanks Dave, those are very useful to see.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:13 pm

In-between casting some seats and getting on with life outside of model making (which does exist and has to continue) I've added some rudimentary trussing and some "generally representative" fittings to the underframe. The fittings will be changed if better information comes to light, but I don't want it to take forever to get to the stage of having a coach that at least looks plausible and is therefore usable.

Although listed on the GNRS website among the available / relevant carriage parts, after buying some Wizard / 51L LYR pattern whitemetal gas tanks it seems to me that they are too big for this coach at least, and that some less expensive gas tanks I bought from Stevenson Carriages seem much closer to the right sizes, so I've glued those lightly in place, gauging the position form the Isinglass side-view and assuming a similar inset to that seen in a photo of a different vehicle in the Howlden 12-wheeler family. The V-hangers for the brakes look much larger in photographs of these 12 wheelers than those that became LNER standard. I suspect that in some or all cases the V hangers also lie 4-abreast, rather than just the two, with double rather than single vacuum cylinders. All I have to hand at present are the MJT standard LNER sets, so I've made up one of those for each end of the vehicle and again lightly glued the set in place.

Meanwhile, an extremely kind, knowledgeable and helpful gentleman with CAD skills and experience of 3D printing is having a look at designs for some parts of the coach that will be more visible to most viewers than are the gas tanks and vacuum sets.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Dave » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:09 pm

That gent is a star, I have some beautifully printed bucket seats and proper dynamos he gave me, really amazing.

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by JASd17 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:14 am

Dave showed the bucket seats and Dynamo to Jonathan W and myself at Wakefield, he is correct 'amazing' is the word.

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 am

After passing various points of no return with this model I've learned more things about the changes that were made to many Doncaster-built 12 wheeled clerestory carriages, especially the dining vehicles, even when some of them were only a few years old. The only photograph I've seen of the specific type of restaurant composite that I'm building is the one that appears in the K. Hoole book on the ECJS vehicles, showing No 317 in (presumably) new condition, circa 1900. Drawings featured in that 1993 Hoole book agree with the 1991 Isinglass drawing regarding the appearance of the other side of the vehicle and its internal layout. Save for the indicated deletion of one toilet and its window, the Isinglass drawing shows all original details of such a vehicle retained when transferred to the GC section in 1925, i.e. full array of lamp chimneys and ventilators on the roof (implying no conversion to electric lighting), small windows retained for the dining saloons (lots of Doncaster 12 wheelers gained large windows), original layout of gas tanks on the underframe, original springing and axleboxes still on the bogies. It also shows triple destination board brackets fitted to the roof and shows how the new LNER standard insignia were set out on one side of the vehicle. While that ought to be good news, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable because my various exchanges with those known to have an interest in these vehicles have so far failed to reveal any photographs or documents to confirm or to challenge the Isinglass version of the later condition of this vehicle.
Does anybody happen to have such a gem of a photograph or document please?
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Manxman1831 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:55 pm

Looking very impressive, and if you're looking to produce any kits to sell onto others, I'd very much like a couple of them.
Brian

Anything weird or unusual will catch my interest, be it an express or locomotive

I'm also drawn to the commemorative, let's hope Bachmann will produce 6165 Valour.

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by JASd17 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:55 pm

It also shows triple destination board brackets fitted to the roof.
Graeme, I am sure for the era you are modelling that is correct. A very small point given the other unknowns.


John

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by john coffin » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:36 am

Still looking at various photos, it is actually difficult to find
many of them for the period in the 30's, especially when
they had been cascaded to the GC.

Clerestory photos are like those of the rear of tenders,
like hen's teeth.

So no one else is likely to know more.

Paul

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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:32 am

I'm forced to arrive at the same conclusion, so I've decided to keep calm and carry on with the model per the Isinglass drawing.

I also checked with Andy Edgson, just in case he had any indication of the sources of information that John had used when producing the drawing. That shed no light on the matter but led to contact with a couple of others, including Rupert Brown, but the question remained unresolved.

Most of the seats and tables are in place now, along with an impression of the kitchen interior - enough to suggest to any who insist on trying to look through the kitchen door droplight that there is a kitchen in there. The rest of the windows are etched / frosted.....

Will try to put up pictures later.
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Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:42 pm

Underframe fittings on a simplified "will do for the moment" basis, including known wrong kind of vacuum brake gear...
STA71254s.jpg
Interior thus far, awaiting castings for last few first class seats and some more paintwork:
STA71255s.jpg
Third class dining saloon and kitchen, plus empty pantry into which nobody will ever be able to see.
STA71257s.jpg
Posh end:
STA71258s.jpg
Other side view with corridor by-passing kitchen:
STA71259s.jpg
Bear in mind when looking at the floor/underframe unit that two of the partitions are missing from the views of the internal layout, these forming part of the bodyshell instead, requiring the latter to be positioned with care as the two items are put together. I'm wondering just how visible the (missing) access doorway from corridor to kitchen will be once the carriage is assembled, and how I might model the Bostwick gate that should guard that doorway if I find that it is in a visible place. A simple print or hand-drawn representation on a piece of paper stuck to the kitchen wall may be as much as it needs, if essential.
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