Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

This forum is for the discussion of railway modelling of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun May 05, 2019 4:45 pm

Thanks for showing those Mike. A useful alternative structure. Let's hope a more economic alternative method of production does actually prove viable.
My bogies on the brass inners, noted previously as being a bit wider than they'll really need to be in final form, measure about 31.2mm over the rubbers on the spring hangers at the outer corners. Is your example rather slimmer?
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun May 05, 2019 5:11 pm

Yesterday I used those Frogmore Confederacy "right shape but malnourished" V-hangers and various oddments to make up something like the two sets of four V-hangers and two vacuum cylinders that I believe to be suggested in the one known photograph of a vehicle of this type and in pictures of several closely related vehicles. I didn't add to my work by trying to fatten up the V-hangers. I've recovered unharmed for other uses the two MJT LNER standard carriage vac sets that I'd originally fitted and glued the substitute units in place, lightly once again, in case better information and parts appear at a later date and I can actually be bothered to do anything about it....
There should, I imagine, also be some vacuum reserve cylinders, and (for ECJS) some air brake cylinders somewhere too, as well as many more rods, levers and cranks, but I can't reliably deduce the presence of such things from relevant photographs so I ask to be forgiven for not feeling the urge to add them to the model.
STA71332s.jpg
STA71333s.jpg
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

MikeTrice
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:45 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by MikeTrice » Sun May 05, 2019 6:06 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:45 pm
Thanks for showing those Mike. A useful alternative structure. Let's hope a more economic alternative method of production does actually prove viable.
My bogies on the brass inners, noted previously as being a bit wider than they'll really need to be in final form, measure about 31.2mm over the rubbers on the spring hangers at the outer corners. Is your example rather slimmer?
29.5mm

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun May 05, 2019 6:26 pm

Thanks for providing that figure.

It occurred to me a day or two ago (and I've just remembered the thought) that there's yet another bogie option for those who insist on the weight of whitemetal or who want the look of the earliest version of the Doncaster 11' 9" bogie with short leaf springs for the wheels and leaf-sprung bolsters too. The 247 variety of bogie, butchered much as I did it but deliberately relieved of its own representations of the bolster ends with coil springs, could be married to a set of those 3D printed bolster ends with double leaf springs. The wheelbase and fine details would still be incorrect of course, but in this instance you can't have everything.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

Dave S
LNER J39 0-6-0
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Dave S » Sun May 05, 2019 8:42 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:45 pm

My bogies on the brass inners, noted previously as being a bit wider than they'll really need to be in final form, measure about 31.2mm over the rubbers on the spring hangers at the outer corners. Is your example rather slimmer?
.by MikeTrice » Sun May 05, 2019 6:06 pm
29.5mm
With the changes the etched should come down to 30mm as I've reduced by 1mm +

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu May 09, 2019 5:01 pm

I had little energy or enthusiasm for modelling on Monday, thanks to horribly wet, cold, dark general nature of the bank holiday weekend, plenty of other things to do, and two (further) pieces of annoying news on the Friday, but I've picked up the threads again now.

These first two images are an attempt to show the way that Mike has improved small details of the bogie sides, with Version 1 top, Version 2 centre and Version 3 bottom in each image. The pips left by the supports have not yet been cleaned off the top edges of V2 & V3, but notice that the horizontal bearer that lies below the adjoining ends of the long leaf springs has been slimmed-down to a truer appearance compared to V1, the leaf springs have become slightly more slender too, and the top flange of the solebar has been made thinner (perhaps too much in V2, we decided, so a little thickness was restored for V3 to facilitate fast-cast resin reproduction). The (correct) gap behind each outer-end spring hanger in V1 is also closed off in V2 and V3 to simplify eventual casting.
STA71335s.jpg
STA71335 detail s.jpg
Relying, for want of any other information, upon a reference in F.A.S Brown's "Stirling to Gresley" book which mentions chocolate-coloured velvet seat coverings in First Class in a Doncaster 12 wheeled diner built four years before my chosen vehicle, I've applied a similar colour to the seats in my First dining saloon. The starkly white plasticard partitions and kitchen have also had a coat of Dulux Magnolia gloss which was the handiest thing I had to suggest an off-white, which seemed more probable for this vehicle than modern "pure brilliant white".
STA71336.JPG
I've additionally cut some pieces of transparent plastic to glaze the main sides of the carriage, temporarily holding these in place with little pieces of double-sides tape so that they can come out again when I'm "teaking" the outsides. Whilst these pieces are in place, I've had a go at applying some Magnolia paint to the areas between the saloons' window frames to emulate the general finish seen in various photographs, protecting the parts below waist level with masking tape. I thought, rightly or wrongly, that paint on the inside face of the glazing sheet would be batter than paint on the surfaces that eventually have to be stuck together. I've also had a go with both fine abrasive and with some translucent pale grey paint at the task of creating an etched-glass appearance to the windows that had obscured glazing, but I think I'll be replacing those later with some little "shades of grey" paper prints of the ECJS design behind clear plastic.
STA71340.JPG
Externally I've started to build up a basic grained teak effect on the clerestory sides which have to be finished before I fit any further vents to the roof, as those vents would get in the way. I've also made up some rudimentary paper-bellows and plain plastic rubbing plate arrangements to augment the simple rigidly moulded gangway connectors on the coach ends. They need to be compressed a little more before they are ready for service, otherwise they'll be at risk of being pulled out and damaged every time the coach is handled. I know they are not cosmetically as good as a proprietary MJT connector, made up with care, but they do close the gaps between coaches, they work smoothly on curves and in a rake of coaches on a layout they do not look obviously "wrong", to my eyes anyway.
STA71337.JPG
STA71338s.jpg
STA71339s.jpg
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue May 14, 2019 2:15 pm

Not much to say or show at present as I'm working my way rather slowly through the process of glazing the clerestory lights, trying, cursing and amending techniques as I go. Inevitably, I now feel that I can see a much better way that I ought to have designed the original roof mouldings several years ago.....
Works photographs of these Doncaster 12 wheeler diners present a confusing variety of appearances of the exterior of the clerestory glazing, in some instances quite dark (consistent with mainly clear glass and a relatively dark interior to the coach as compared with the external daylight) in some instances very pale suggesting etched or frosted glass. It's difficult to decide what effect I should be trying to achieve, so I'm attempting to make it possible to alter the appearance from almost white through translucent to dark, or vice versa, at a later stage, should a change be desired.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed May 15, 2019 7:58 pm

As time has ebbed away over recent days my (decreasingly) patient attempts to glaze the clerestory sides neatly and without an excessively recessed appearance to the glazing have not produced wonderful results. I may have to start again by a completely different method at some time, but a couple of weeks' enforced break from model making activity and forum participation looms, so nothing will happen for a while. Using a spacer to support each pane, I initially retained each piece with a couple of tiny spots of superglue, then on removing the spacer for access I added either more superglue or a full thin skin of PVA on the inside face. Neither approach was wholly satisfactory. I finished up with many more handling marks, super-glue crusts and whitened areas on the glazing than I would have done using "decent sized" pieces of glazing material, and the PVA even in minimal quantities produced a discernible meniscus at the edge of the pane. Even after cleaning the marks off as much as possible, then resorting to the trick of applying a wash of well thinned gloss varnish with a touch of black paint to eliminate the white marks and subdue the scratches, I thought the results looked pretty poor. I even tried filling the space behind a couple of the panes with clear silicone sealant then adding another flat glazing piece to the back of the sealant to get flat faces front and rear to the glazing, avoiding any concave-lens effect caused by a rear edge glue meniscus, but I still wasn't really happy. Thanks in part to a suggestion from our contributor kimballthurlow, I think I've improved the disappointing result a bit by quickly creating the frosted / etched effect by means of nothing more than some tissue-paper taped in place (reversibly) on the inside faces of the clerestory, nicely hiding many of the defects in the transparency and regularity of the glazing.
STA71348s.jpg
Meanwhile, thanks to the continued skill, enthusiasm and generosity of Mr. Trice, I've received some more 3D printed bogie parts which present the possibility of assembling a complete bogie without the aid of a fold-up brass inner frame. Although Mike has had difficulty keeping the bogie top plates (and the under-floor mounting blocks) flat after the printing process, it would be perfectly possible to produce straight, true cast-resin versions of these parts. The presence of locating aids on the inner faces of the latest bogie sides, and the pivot boss on the top of the bogie top plate when there are recesses on the underside will mean that any moulds will have to be two-part rather than simple flat top or open top ones, but that requirement can be met. Here, only partly unpacked, are the new parts:
STA71350s.jpg
STA71351s.jpg
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

Dave
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Dave » Thu May 16, 2019 10:18 am

Wow, amazing stuff from you and Mike.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:34 pm

Thanks Dave. I must say that I never expected to spend two and a half long months on this carriage and still not have it finished. But nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
I could have built and painted a loco more quickly.....
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by john coffin » Fri May 17, 2019 12:23 am

Well Greame,
if you will try to model things that we have almost no proper detail on!!!!!!!!!!

Sadly, when Michael Harris and Nick Campling sorted the Doncaster carriage drawings
in the mid 1960's they ignored much of the Howlden stuff, and of course because
the few of the Clerestories were left, except in departmental use, few drawings were kept.

However, I must confess a great admiration for what you have done,
however, it does highlight the problem with both resin casting, 3d printing
and plastic kit making,which is the recess for the glass in both the main body,
and the clerestory. I think it will take even more of your skill to camouflage
the problem. However when it is whizzing round Grantham, who will see,
and not be more distracted by the internal works you have created.

Paul

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:11 am

I think my good intentions of keeping alterations of the basic clerestory mouldings to a minimum have led to work that has spiralled out of control. I have an idea that I might attempt to build complete replacements for the straight parts of the clerestory sides, off the model, and if they give a good result then cut out what is already there to create a rebate into which I can fit the new sides.

A nice thin layer of plastic sheet and strip to represent the woodwork, mostly pre-painted and stuck carefully onto a complete flat backing layer of clear glazing material is what I have in mind at present. I think I can ensure that when I cut out the existing representation, there's enough material left behind to support and secure the new sides...
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

Paul_sterling
NBR J36 0-6-0
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Paul_sterling » Fri May 17, 2019 11:24 am

That is fantastic work Graeme, a credit to you and Mike.

Cheers, Paul.

earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by earlswood nob » Fri May 17, 2019 12:44 pm

G'day all on a green tea detox day

I, for one, am learning a lot from this clerestory build.

I think the idea of using a complete clear section for the clerestory, and fit plastic overlay for the wooden framing, is a good one. One can use clearfix to fit the pieces together, and keep the "glass" clear.

Earlswood nob

Dave S
LNER J39 0-6-0
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Dave S » Fri May 17, 2019 7:27 pm

I've got a different idea to try out for a Clerestorey, but I'm waiting for the etches to come back from PPD before I can.

Post Reply