Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

This forum is for the discussion of railway modelling of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

Dave
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1294
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Dave » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:08 am

Agree Mike, the Moors restaurant car is incorrect, not all preserved liveries are correct, we have to be careful when looking at them.

mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3144
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by mick b » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:16 am

MikeTrice wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:55 pm
mick b wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:47 pm
Photo of the LNERCA LNER Restaurant car on the NYMR with stripes between lettering. I would be very surprised if it is not correct ? .
14027550622_5b32de73a8_b.jpg
I would not assume it is correct, in fact the official photos suggest it is not. Also incorrect on this carriage is the upper lining is too long, it should terminate 1" from the beading, and the "RESTAURANT CAR" lettering is too large.

SVR version for comparison:
IMG_5742.JPG

Correct length of vertical lining here:
NYMR NRM 2010 IMG_1256 MT.JPG
As usual a minefield , excellent photos.

65447
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1540
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Overlooking the GEML

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by 65447 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:52 am

MikeTrice wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:38 pm
Funny you should mention the official photos. Went through them tonight and in each case the vertical lining is missing where it bisects the lettering or words.

Where a door was placed between the words they were lined as normal.
For those that have a copy, the reproduced official photographs accompanying the diagrams in the Catering Vehicles chapter of Michael Harris' LNER Standard Gresley Carriages confirm the absence of lining where the beading passes through lettering.

However, as an exception to this rule, Diagram 4 Open First illustrated on p22 built at Doncaster in 1925, has the lining in place. The caption notes that this was outshopped in the changeover period between suffix letters to the numbers and the addition of an Area prefix and it is noteworthy that the LNER and number transfers are set more towards the centre of the vehicle than the new standard. BR repeated this sort of indecision when newly formed.

This book also provides a useful and reasonably comprehensive description of the liveries and finishes on pp12-13, albeit omitting to mention not painting the lining between words!

MikeTrice
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:45 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by MikeTrice » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:28 am

65447 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:52 am
For those that have a copy, the reproduced official photographs accompanying the diagrams in the Catering Vehicles chapter of Michael Harris' LNER Standard Gresley Carriages confirm the absence of lining where the beading passes through lettering.

However, as an exception to this rule, Diagram 4 Open First illustrated on p22 built at Doncaster in 1925, has the lining in place.
Looking at a clearer copy of that image I believe it is a trick of the light.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:38 am

Well one small point of doubt certainly stimulated plenty of discussion, with, it seems, a reasonably well agreed outcome. Thanks to all who contributed.
With running number added, errant lining deleted, and sunlight doing absolutely no favours for the view of the still jet-black underframe fittings, the vehicle now awaits attention to the matter of some mock etched windows and any further livery alterations that may result from well-informed observations. I'm not varnishing over those transfers just yet.....
STA71368m.jpg
STA71370ms.jpg
STA71373ms.jpg
STA71377m.jpg
I don't plan to fit anything like a scale coupling or hoses to the headstocks, since those would restrict some of the "practical" coupling options that I want to keep open.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

bucoops
NER Y7 0-4-0T
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:47 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by bucoops » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:02 am

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:01 pm
On temporary blocks the body sits thus on the modified 247 bogies:
STA71292s.jpgSTA71294s.jpg

Yesterday the postman delivered a little package from that excellent gentleman South of the Thames. It contained refined versions of the 3D printed bogies sides, some true GNR-pattern retractable carriage buffers (both one piece and two-piece versions for me to try out), and as a rather nice bonus some LNER bucket seats as used in 1930s open carriages. The bogie sides will appear in due course. The buffers, tiny and in grey resin include more detail than can be seen in my amateurish photographs, but you'll be able to see that the seats are rather nice:
STA71296s.jpgSTA71297s.jpgSTA71298s.jpg

The idea is for me to have a go at quick and, it is hoped, fairly inexpensive duplication of these parts in resin.

This morning, the postman brought me another package of items to try, this time from a gentleman in Bedfordshire who seems to be largely building tramway locomotives lately. Doncaster 6 wheeled bogies mark 2 should be under way shortly....
STA71295s.jpg
Amazing work on the restaurant car!

Please can I "register interest" in the bucket seats? I will be building a few D216 GE section open thirds in original condition.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:59 pm

Hello there!

Yes, I'll bear in mind that there's interest in some cast resin bucket seats.


Other developments: after scrutinising dotty image reproductions in Hoole's book, and making practical allowances for available time, limitations of willpower and a maximum size of 8mm x 6.75 mm for each pane of glass in 4mm scale, I have concluded that once printed on white paper and placed behind clear glazing material, sketchy designs such as the one below will be more than adequate to suggest the etched or otherwise engraved "obscured" original windows in the former ECJS restaurant car.
File1185 ECJS etched window.jpg
File1185 ECJS etched window.jpg (21.55 KiB) Viewed 511 times
I'll be fascinated to hear from anybody who can state with authority that such glazing did, or did not survive in these vehicles into the 1930s.....
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

bucoops
NER Y7 0-4-0T
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:47 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by bucoops » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:58 pm

Thank you :)

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:57 pm

I think the installed appearance of the "fancy" obscured glazing is satisfactory compared to the rest of the vehicle, although that's not to say that it could not be better. Here are the kitchen windows and the lavatory window:
STA71378s.jpg
STA71379s.jpg
I've printed narrower versions of the design for the narrower windows of the corridor that passes the kitchen. Digressing for a moment, I have no idea why Doncaster felt it necessary to put five windows narrower than all those in the rest of the coach, where four windows of "standard" width could have simply been spaced slightly more widely, but there you are. Anyway, there was a problem I hadn't really thought about sufficiently. The printed paper designs are fine for those windows where the darker grey areas suggest transparency but don't actually have to reveal any hint of what lies within. Unfortunately, the only useful photograph I've seen of a similar vehicle in this carriage family shows that the corridor windows appear more translucent than the obscured glass in other places, revealing the line of two handrails (presumably brass) across all of the windows in the corridor. Nothing shows through my paper prints when installed in the corridor windows! If I can find some much thinner and more translucent paper on which to home-print the designs then I can make further progress, but for the time being I've reverted to the plain translucent grey glazing that I produced originally (by abrasion and a thin paint wash) for the five corridor windows, now with two lengths of brass wire discernible behind it.
STA71380s.jpg
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by john coffin » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:04 pm

Really nice work Greame, especially since none of us have much real data.

However, your comments on the 5 windows could be addressed by the number of times the Kitchen,
and Pantries were moved around especially at the beginning of their life whilst the GNR were
trying to figure out how to most effectively use the space.

Even Gresley made some strange decisions at the beginning in relation to windows.

Paul

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:13 pm

Thanks Paul. I'm glad you think the result looks okay, after my decision to push on and finish the model as well as I could using only the information already to hand. The idea of putting it on hold indefinitely in the hope that I might eventually discover more about the prototype really didn't appeal.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

MikeTrice
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:45 pm

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by MikeTrice » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:29 pm

A major improvement would be to use "RESTAURANT CAR" transfers of the right size: https://fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/l ... ding-79095

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:49 am

Thanks Mike, I've deliberately avoided varnishing over the transfers, in order to retain the option to change, but when I applied the HMRS items a couple of weeks ago my thoughts were these:
" I considered getting some Fox transfers instead, as the stated sizes seemed promising, but then I considered where the transfers ought to be on the other side of the vehicle too. With no photograph or trusted drawing I could only use my own questionable judgement, but for the different panel layout on that side and the probable placing of the word there was no obvious case for closer spacing of letters. As a set of Fox transfers seemed an expensive option for the sake of one word on one side of a carriage, I decided to settle for alteration of one of the HMRS transfers for just one side of the model, using an unaltered transfer for the other side. For the alteration, with two Stanley knife blades clipped together, I took regular 0.6mm wide slices out of every gap between letters, then applied the remaining pieces of transfer to the model."

More certainty regarding the correct location on the kitchen side of the vehicle might strengthen the perceived case for smaller transfers. I wasn't convinced by photographs of other restaurant cars that the spacing of the letters was fully standardised. The spacing of the two words clearly was not. Panel layout must have dictated spacing in some cases.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by earlswood nob » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:17 pm

G'day all from sunny and wet Surrey,

I don't know if it would work, but could one use computer printing on transparency to give the translucent effect?

Malcolm

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5307
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Atlantic's works: A proper vintage carriage.

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:49 pm

Hello Malcolm,

I'd wondered about something similar, maybe using the paper for home-printed transfers, the kind that has almost-transparent carrier film, but I've not gone into the matter in any further detail as distractions are currently plentiful.


AS JONATHAN WEALLEANS HAS ALREADY MENTIONED, WE'RE BOTH DEMONSTRATING AT THIRSK EXHIBITION ON SUNDAY (ONLY) SO IF ANYBODY IS WELL-PLACED TO VISIT, AND TO TELL ME THINGS ABOUT D.79 ECJS RESTAURANT CARS THAT I OUGHT TO HAVE KNOWN FIVE MONTHS AGO, THEN I'LL BE ALL-EARS. MOSTLY OF COURSE, I'LL BE SPLOSHING RESIN AROUND.....
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

Post Reply