diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

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chaz harrison
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

I have just been up into the roof to do some measuring.
First let me say that my measuring method was a little "iffy". I used my digital vernier as a depth gauge, between the top of the curved crossing rail of a Peco point (at the point where it was about half way across the "four foot") and my best estimate of the centre line of the roof. The process was made more difficult by the presence of Dingham automatic couplings and vacuum brake pipes.
Both prototype vans were 12' 6" tall, which, in 7mm, scales at 87.5mm. The D & S four wheeler came out at 87.8mm. Bearing in mind that any error is likely to make the measured height greater (tilting the calipers slightly away from the vertical would do this) this seems to be spot on. 0.3mm? the van's just riding high on it's springs!
And the Kirk bogie van? Well you can see in my snap that it is taller than the Diag 120 model. It checked out at 90.8 - so a little over 3mm too tall. Some of this is no doubt due to the false ceiling I added to the underside of the vacuum-formed roof to make this easier to fit. The curved edges of the profile were making the joint at the cantrail rather a problem. Mea Culpa. I think I used 20thou HIP so that would account for about 1/2mm of the error. I guess that the rest is caused by a too generous height from that vacuum-formed roof? I would say, in my defence, that the roof profile, when fixed in place, matched closely the shape of the ends and I was not left with a gap to fill.
So I think we can say that it's the D & S etched brass kit that is spot on - the Kirk plastic "kit" (more a collection of parts, with a bit of work left to the builder) is a bit compromised in it's accuracy. I will admit that some of the error is probably my fault - I built it. I'm not about to scrap it as it captures the Gresley coaching stock look very well but I will carry on running it, but not coupling the two together!

Chaz
Hucknall Central
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:32 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Hucknall Central »

I've been following this thread with interest, having just completed the Isinglass (4mm) kit. The kit is excellent to build, but needs graet care with the "fiddly bits". Its now in primer and the final colour to be decided. As the body is fastened to the floor/chassis with screws, the roof can be soldered into place from inside, and glazing added after painting of course.
I' ve noticed some remarks about the exterior handles; surely they are attached to the doors (there are guide holes on the edge of the doors) to facilitate easy sliding and closing? Well, that's what I've done anyhow. :)
Beside the colour (I note Jonathan's use of Triumph Russet Brown), I would like to learn of the correct classification letters of the vehicle, if anyone can help.
Paul
Hucknall Central
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:32 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Hucknall Central »

Sorry!
Should have added Pre-war livery etc. :oops:
chaz harrison
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Coincidentally I was talking to the the "Isinglass" man on Sunday at the EM exhibition in Bracknell. Assuming that you, Paul, are referring to the Diag 86/7 van (and that was the focus of this thread) I can't help you with the inscriptions. My own interest is in BR days, but info' on the lettering for this period is hard to find, too.
Checking in Michael Harris's LNER Standard Gresley Carriages there is no photo. He reproduces both diagrams which appear to be identical and there is a small amount of text listing the orders and running numbers, but nothing else.
I am sure you are right about the handles, although whether they would have made it "easy" to slide those big doors I doubt. I believe BR used the GWR pattern of hinged doors on their standard 12T van as the sliding type used by the LNER and LMS was such hard work!

Chaz
Hucknall Central
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:32 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Hucknall Central »

Thanks Chaz for your reply (yes, I was referring to the Dia 86 van). I will consult Michael Harris's book for clues.
I also have in primer the 52' CCT from Matt Chivers, another kit of quality, and am faced with the same problem re
classification and running numbers. I have emailed him for possible assistance. All good fun really, and much better than TV.
Paul
chaz harrison
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Paul,

I don't think you're going to find Michael Harris much help. Can I ask you to post any details you do find about the lettering applied to the vans? I have no idea how to letter my 7mm model and was going to fall back on a thick layer grime to cover the lack of any insignia!

Chaz
Bill Bedford
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:43 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Bill Bedford »

Hucknall Central wrote:Thanks Chaz for your reply (yes, I was referring to the Dia 86 van). I will consult Michael Harris's book for clues.
I also have in primer the 52' CCT from Matt Chivers, another kit of quality, and am faced with the same problem re
classification and running numbers.
BCK
Nos 1226-41
chaz harrison
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Thanks for that Bill.

The question remains, what other lettering/codes etc did the vans carry pre-nationalisation, and subsequently in BR days?

Chaz
Bill Bedford
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:43 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Bill Bedford »

chaz harrison wrote:Thanks for that Bill.

The question remains, what other lettering/codes etc did the vans carry pre-nationalisation, and subsequently in BR days?
There a good photo of a long CCT in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol3 which show one as built and the lettering is clear enough to be read. The block of info half way up the right hand side contains all the dimension details, length inside, width, extreme width, extreme height and load. The wheelbase and tare was under 'XP' at the right hand bottom corner and the code and number at the left hand bottom corner. The info panels were all post 1935. Before that there were large 'NE' letters on the body and the type code and number were on the right.

Photos & drawings of the bogie CCT are in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol1
chaz harrison
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Bill,

thanks again! Will have to seek out the books in question - trip to the library I think.

Chaz
Hucknall Central
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:32 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Hucknall Central »

Chaz,
Thanks for the tip on the Michael Harris book, at £125 that idea has now been filed.

Thanks Bill for the numbers for the bogie CCT. Presumably this vehicle would be painted
Teak? Sorry to stray a little from the original (Dia 86/87) thread.

Paul.
Bill Bedford
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:43 pm

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Bill Bedford »

Hucknall Central wrote:Thanks Bill for the numbers for the bogie CCT. Presumably this vehicle would be painted
Teak? Sorry to stray a little from the original (Dia 86/87) thread.
They were certainly painted brown, but I believe it was something like wagon bauxite with a few coats of varnish.
60117 Bois Roussel

Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel »

Bit of an update from my end on several fronts, after looking at two GAs for these two designs (which were not the same) and a Colour-Rail slide from 1938. I've added it to the w/s, a synopsis linking with some of the above being:

- the slide shows a D.86 van not in bauxite, which was used for goods vehicles, but what might be described as passenger stock mid-brown, except that it's virtually chocolate. I know that you can't get a true colour from such a source, but the Royal train is passing alongside and what you'd expect to see of freshly varnished/well maintained teak carriages. A relative comparison can be made. The LNER-period lettering was also passenger-related in that its height was mid-body (possibly cream or white??) and placed towards the ends, in the middle of the available area. Except on the LHS where the sliding door would have obscured the "LNER", so it was placed on the other side of the door. You can see this end on the colour slide while numerous b&w pictures show the whole thing.

- the GAs confim that these two designs were dual braked and fitted with oil lighting/end steps in the sequence I've already described.

- the surviving body GA for what was intended to be D.86 shows that it was used as the basis for the Diagram, which in turn became the basis for the Isinglass drawing, and then the model. Yet as the photographs show, Stratford built something else - for both D.86 and D.87. The fairest thing I can say is that the Isinglass Models kit, which claims to cover both Diagrams, doesn't, while the two kits from D&S got them both right.

- Some other details have also come to light.
The whole write-up and pdf now runs to thirteen pages with just over 20 illustrations: http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-an ... 6-and-d-87
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