diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

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boeing757
NER J27 0-6-0
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by boeing757 »

Oh Dear, crushing indifference, never mind I'll continue to admire the output of those who could obviously have shared their superior knowledge. Fraternity?
jwealleans
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by jwealleans »

More total ignorance than indifference, Bob. My only thought was that Ian Kirk does a kit for these and one of the 7mm chaps would be in with an answer.

You could try a PM to 65447 - he's very knowledgeable - or try the 7mm list on the GERS website (which I think 65447 has a lot to do with).
boeing757
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by boeing757 »

Thanks Jonathan, unaware there was a kit available, will follow up.

B
65447
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by 65447 »

boeing757 wrote:Hi,
Hope you'll forgive the re-emergence of an old thread, but only a few questions. I am building a 7mm Dia120 pigeon van. I only have a drawing(scaled up 4mm Tatlow) and one photo namely E70212 on p22 of Historic Cariage Drawings V3. Does anyone have any coach end and underframe detail they could share, also what colour is the BR lettering/numbers on a van yet to be repainted in crimson. Finally anyone know a source of axleguard/w irons suitable for this model.
Thanks as always
Hi boeing757,

Not crushing indifference, but rather starting a new topic in an old thread does not guarantee gaining the attention of others. As you will realise I've only just found this, and I've been looking on the previous incarnation of RMWeb because someone posted a whole lot of photos of the one that's been restored on the North Norfolk Railway, which would be ideal since it would answer your questions in colour. Roger Chivers also put up some photos to go with his 4mm scale kit. I've just checked the carriages pages on NNR website and it's not that helpful. Give me a bit longer and I'll try and track down the thread(s) on RMWeb3, unless young Jonathan Wealleans can remember which one(s) it was/(were)...

I would also be interested in knowing of a suitable set of axleguards, especially as these were inside sprung.

The BR letters for a teak varnished example would be the same as the LNER ones, but with an E prefix.
Last edited by 65447 on Fri May 14, 2010 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
65447
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by 65447 »

jwealleans wrote:More total ignorance than indifference, Bob. My only thought was that Ian Kirk does a kit for these and one of the 7mm chaps would be in with an answer.

You could try a PM to 65447 - he's very knowledgeable - or try the 7mm list on the GERS website (which I think 65447 has a lot to do with).
You're too kind Jonathan (and too much information...). Those lists on the GERS website are somewhat out of date and incomplete; someone needs a roundtuit.

Dan Pinnock (D&S) also does a 7mm etched kit for a D120 van. It's somewhat pricier than Ian's plastic kit but better detailed all round, and you get some decent axleguards...
boeing757
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by boeing757 »

Thank you both for your replies and the valuable info contained there. I decided not to start a new thread as I was sure a single answer would have ended the topic.
Regarding D & S kits I was mistakenly under the impression that they were out of production, I shall be following this up when back in the UK on Wednesday, especially as Danny seems to live locally to my UK address.
Returning to my original question, I was aware of the addition of an E prefix to the original number but I thought there was also a period when the van retained its brown finish but received the full number and lettering in BR Gill style letters. Did they all receive the crimson treatment? I was about ten when I used to play at my local station and recall all the parcels traffic went in a van immediately behind the tender, mostly a Dia120 or a BZ. I seem to remember that they were very dirty and run down and no sign of crimson.
Finally, I apologize for the petulant tone of second post, I have made myself look at pictures of GWR engines for an hour as a penance.
B
65447
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by 65447 »

Hi Boeing757,

If you are able, try and give Dan a telephone call first to find out if he has any in stock if you are after one. There are many kits that he only produces in batches - perhaps once a year; for example I've to wait until Guildex in September for a GER loco coal wagon to be available. Dan is still producing, even expanding, the 7mm range, and elsewhere on this Forum PaulG has posted details of some 4mm kit runs.

The body of the D120 vans were of teak, so were properly varnished and not painted in the ersatz brown colour. It's most unlikely that they would receive the correct BR style Gill Sans running number until repainted in Crimson. I suspect all that survived long enough would have been painted Crimson, and some might even have made it into Maroon livery - Bill Bedford or 2512silverfox might have more detailed information. If they were that dirty it would have been rather difficult to tell what colour was underneath, and the only clue might well have been the style of the running number etc. Dan's kit instructions might also help here.
boeing757
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by boeing757 »

Thanks again, I will be talking to Danny later this week.
Regarding the van, it does seem logical that the Gill Sans would have been applied after repainting crimson. My model period is c1957 so I imagine they would all have had the treatment by then. The ones I saw must have been really filthy. Incidentally, the photo in Vol3 of E70212 seems to show a dark and light coach line just below the top (waistline) beading, BR maroon livery perhaps?
chaz harrison
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Sorry that this reply is a bit tardy, boeing757, but I've been away from my computer for a while.
This is a snap of my 7mm Diag 120 van, built from the D & S kit.
P1010288 (1165 x 626).jpg
I can thoroughly recommend the kit, which goes together well although, as you will find with many etched brass kits, getting the ends square to the sides can be a challenge (or at least it was to me!).
The D & S instructions are not their strongest point, but the kits are well designed and fit so well that this is not so important.
This second snap shows the D & S van coupled to a Diag 67 bogie van built using Ian Kirk parts.
P1010289 (1204 x 774).jpg
Two things strike me about this comparison. The bogie van is taller and looks more massive. The panelling (moulded in plastic) is more prominent than on the four-wheeler, etched in brass sheet. I don't know which of the two is more accurate (maybe other forum members might like to comment) but I usually avoid coupling these two vehicles together to avoid the conflicting comparison.
65447
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by 65447 »

boeing757 wrote:Incidentally, the photo in Vol3 of E70212 seems to show a dark and light coach line just below the top (waistline) beading, BR maroon livery perhaps?
The paint is blistered and peeling so most unlikely to have been repainted in Maroon. In any event the only bogie brake vans to receive lined Maroon livery were those regularly allocated to specific workings, to harmonise with the passenger carriages.
Bill Bedford
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by Bill Bedford »

chaz harrison wrote:Two things strike me about this comparison. The bogie van is taller and looks more massive. The panelling (moulded in plastic) is more prominent than on the four-wheeler, etched in brass sheet. I don't know which of the two is more accurate (maybe other forum members might like to comment) but I usually avoid coupling these two vehicles together to avoid the conflicting comparison.
The beading on LNER stock was a 7/8th inch half round moulding. In 7mm that scale as about 0.5mm and in 4mm 0.3mm.
boeing757
NER J27 0-6-0
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by boeing757 »

Thank you Chaz for the images of your models the Dia 120 van certainly looks the part ( I don't recognize your bogie van but it looks good.) Regarding the contrast in cross section could they have been built to different loading gauges? it looks to me as if the buffer heights tally.
65447, thanks and the peeling paint you observe would seem to be at odds with a fresh repaint. Nonetheless the lining is there and I don't think crimson vehicles had any lining. The problem with black and white photos once again.
chaz harrison
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Well now Boeing757, the bogie van is a model of a Non-vestibuled brake van. There were four diagrams, all quite similar, 67, 129, 284 and 357.
DSC_4586a (1201 x 711).jpg
I took this photo of E70268E, which survives at Loughborough. It is not in original condition but was converted in the fifties into a TPO tender. This involved the removal of the guard's compartment and the fitting of an extra set of double doors and offset corridor connections to match those on the Royal Mail vans. However you can see that it retains Fox bogies like the ones with which my model is fitted.

Incidentally I have checked in Michael Harris's book and both vans should be 12' 6" from rail top to the top of the roof curve (that's 87.5mm in 7mm). I haven't been brave enough to measure the models to find out which one is wrong yet!

Chaz
boeing757
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by boeing757 »

Hi Chaz,
Thanks for your continued interest. Your bogie van is a handsome vehicle but does not go with my Essex branch line prototype ( Mind you neither does my A3 pacific but lines have to be drawn somewhere!)
I am not good at colours, is the Loughboro survivor crimson or maroon, I notice the ends are the same colour, I thought these were black in BR days.
Btw I would be very interested to know if the D & S van is correct or undersized before I commit.
B
chaz harrison
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Re: diagram 86/7 LNER General/Milk van

Post by chaz harrison »

Morning Boeing757,

I'm sorry, I'm ashamed to say I'm not certain what shade E70268E is. Looking at the snap on my screen I would say crimson but that assumes quite a lot about both my camera and the computer! As to the colour of the ends it is important not to use the preserved lines and their equipment as a guide to how things were on BR. There is a lower quadrant signal on the GCR which might be taken to be an original GCR installation, but for the fact that it has a lattice post, which appears to be of GNR origin. We could all make up a list of anachronisms, errors, "were having our Fairburn tank in blue, even though it's wrong, so there", etc.

A Pacific eh? Well it's your railway. I admit that my small (14') O gauge layout is overstocked and the V2 and English Electric type 3 are definitely naughty.

I will pop up into the roof sometime today and measure the height of the Diag 120 van. Watch this space.
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