Question on liveries

[TimMeese]

I wonder if anyone can help me on the question of LNER liveries. My uncertainty concerns the lettering and numbering. The HMRS transfers are like most RTR finishes: Red, Gold and thin white lines. My specific questions are these:

1) Were those thin white lines always there? I have a suspicion from photos that some locos (perhaps earler liveries) just had the red and gold. This is the livery used on old hornby models, though that is no serious guide. I'm guessing Hornby did it because (i) it was easier to produce and (ii) it actually stands out better than the more muddled version with the thin white stripe!

2) Was there ever a version in yellow and red (a bit like the LMS)? Again, some photos seem to suggest this, but the quality is not good enough for me to be sure. And as far as I know, HMRS don't produce them (but they do the LMS).

3) I am fairly sure that plainer versions also existed (e.g. as on the green liveried V3, as depicted by Bachmann). But I don't know the rules, periods, or sources of such transfers and colour photos are rare.

4) Finally, did goods locos receive different treatment during any period? From what I can make out, they always look the same as the green locos.

Thanks
Tim.

[richard]

Welcome to the forums Tim.

The RCTS "Locomotives of the LNER" Part 1 says that lettering "L&NER" (without full stops) came into use in the March/May 1923 timeframe.
Passenger locos used gold, and freight locos used yellow. Red shading but I can't see any mention of white lines.

The "&" was dropped by September 1923.

For lining/etc NER Black with Red lining was chosen for freight engines; and GNR Green with black lining edged with white (no olive edging).
A number of the sheds used combination liveries for the first few years - eg. Stratford used GER grey but "LNER" lettering, and Darlington famously used a lighter shade of "Doncaster Green" for many years.

Unlined black was chosen from November 1941 for economy reasons.

Richard

[CVR1865]

Tim

ok the livery transfers by the HMRS are good for the period from about 1923, in early LNer days the old pre group liveries would have been seen all over the system, until ww2 when black was adopted.

The post ww2 livery was the same lining white/black/white but with yellow lettering and numbers that wasn't shaded like the pre war was. The A4's were livered differently just prior to the outbreak of war when they all recieved stainless steel letters and numbers to replace the gold shaded ones they had prior to this. They would carry these steel insignia until 1947, even through the 1946 renumbering.

The goods livery tends to vary and i'm not totally sure on the exact details, i can only comment from Yeadon's register on the LNER J15's, this says that the black goods livery should have a red line running the length of the running boards and a single red boiler band. This is the pre-war version and what happened between 45 and 47 i don't know. However Stratford (the works for the great eastern section) would rarely add the red lining as prescribed by the LNER and many of the former GER freight locos would run in a plain Black livery. The numbers and lettering were the same as for the passenger loco's.

I suspect the V3 you are refering to is in a post 45 livery.

i hope this helps

[TimMeese]

Richard/Simon - thanks, those calrify a few things. But one or two puzzles remain. Bachmann freight locos (e.g. K3, J39, WD) appear with Gold/Red/White numbers and letters. Assuming these are correct (?), the WD is obviously post 1945, so perhaps also the K3 and J39 (Simon indicatest yellow/red for freight pre-war). This prompts an hypothesis: as green locos changed to the plane yellow numbering post-war, perhaps there was a stock of gold shaded red lettering that was used on the freight traffic (assuming transfers and not hand painting was used). But did some of the green locos also receive shaded letters after the war, or would they have been strictly limited to the plane yellow? Obviously, this is important for anyone running a layout in the period 1945-48 because, I'm guessing, very little pre-war livery would have survived the war (though I understand that some LMS did).

best

[TimMeese]

I've dug around a bit more on this and looked at my books a bit more closely. For the record, HMRS also do the following on sheet 4A (I had overlooked these):
Yellow, red shading. (pre war black engines)
Plain, yellow. (post war)

The web site also included some more useful notes consistent with the replies above.

http://www.hmrs.org.uk/transfers/index.php

Looking at 'The big Four in Colour' p59 I see a photo from 1946 of A3 Sir Hugo in green livery and red shadded letters - looks like gold with the thin white lines. Also a B12 in similar livery in 1947.

So, it is clear that this livery was around post-war. The caption to the B12 claims that it was painted post-war, and makes special remark to the 'older style' shaded letters. So they were still being applied.

There are plenty of examples of the plain yelow post-war lettering, but I could not see any post 1945 black locos that were convincingly gold shaded red - so I 'm thinking Bachmann might have got the livery on the WD wrong.

LNER Locomotives in colour 1936-1948 tells a similar story:

Some of the black locos here do look to have gold lettering (though difficult to be sure), but they are pre-group types and the photos are either undated or pre-war.

[x568wcn]

And if you're looking at A4s, some had Cut out metal LNER and Numbers..if it helps!

[CVR1865]

tim

stratford were deffinately still applying pre war style lettering to its locos post 45. This was apparantly mainly due to the large amount of use for the number 8 that was used on ex ger locos so Stratford woud appear to have aimed to get the livery on green locos right first and then used what ever was left on the freight locos and tanks.

Stratford appears to be very much the poor relation when it comes to LNER works so it may be an exception but there is every chance that all the depot's are doing the similar things. It is possible then that the Bachmann WD is an exception with the wrong letters on it. At the end of the day you can always apply that golden modelling rule and run what ever you think looks best and fits right with your layout. "Its my layout and i'll run whatever i like". lol

hope all of tihs helps you out, what area are you modelling?

regards

[TimMeese]

Simon - yes that sounds plausible; I like the story about the 8s.

They all do it now, but several years ago, it seemed that the smaller the police force, the more of the dayglo colour stickers they had all over the cars. I suggested this was small forces trying to be big, but my wife remarked that each force was probably issued with the same acreage of sticker...


Back to the locos: As I've already weathered my LNER WD its a bit late to change the transfers on that, but I think I'll consider changing future black locos to yellow/red; looks better than the gold I think.

WRT 'run what I like..' - there are rather a lot of football specials on my layout, and I thought it would be rather nice to make sure nobody goes thirsty on my Castles Express Pullman by having 1st AND 3rd class bar coaches; Looks great :-)

cheers

[mick b]

And if you're looking at A4s, some had Cut out metal LNER and Numbers..if it helps!

Does anyone know??

Post War A4's in particular on A4 NO 26 Miles Beevor were the name and works plates changed to Chrome to match the Metal Lettering& No's?.
I have the Bachmann OO loco and have added cut out lettering & nos.
I also have the RCTS book but it only says post war metal lettering & nos fitted after hostilities ended.

Thanks

Mick

[x568wcn]

It had been announced that a new streamlined service was to be operated between London and Edinburgh, to be called the Coronation in celebration of the Coronation of King George VI, and it had been decided that the next five engines would receive a special livery to match up with the new coaching stock that had been built for this service. Nº 4488 was still in the paint shop, the story being that it was being used to test various paint schemes in order to arrive at a suitable "Royal" livery. In keeping with the Imperial tone set by the title of the train it was decided that the engines were to carry the names of the major constituents of the British Empire, so on 15/6/1937 Nº4489 re-emerged from the Works resplendent in Garter Blue with Coronation Red wheels. The streamlined front was finished in Black and taken round the sides of the smokebox and finished in a narrow parabolic curve (similar to the one first seen on No 4482), with narrow Red and White lines, following the curve, between the Blue and the Black.
The engine had been re-named Dominion of Canada borne on chromium plated nameplates fixed to each side of the smokebox, the engine number and company initials were displayed in 12 inch high stainless steel cut-out numerals and letters on the cabside and tender respectively. A 2 inch wide stainless steel strip was fixed along the bottom edge of the aerofoil casing and also along the bottom edge of the tender. Rectangular metal plates bearing the Canadian coat of arms were fixed to the cab sides below the running number, this left no room to fix the Works building plates, so these were fixed inside the cab roof. All the handrails were allegedly chromium plated, but could have been stainless steel, I have not been able to confirm which was the one used. Still no signs of Nº 4488, next out of Works was Nº4491 carrying the name Commonwealth of Australia, followed by Nº4490 Empire of India, then Nº4492 Dominion of New Zealand, and finally 63 days after disappearing into the paint shop Nº4488 re-emerged as Union of South Africa. All bearing the coats of arms of their respective countries on their cabsides. I cannot imagine that it took so long just to sort out a paint scheme, was there some mechanical problem, or was it just that it got trapped at the back of the paint shop, and it was easier to paint the other engines and get them out and into traffic, rather than waste time doing a complicated shunt to free the one engine?? There must be an explanation but I have not found any documentary evidence so far, that even hints at what happened.
Just prior to Nº4495 leaving the Works, it had been decided that the wool barons of Leeds and Bradford would benefit from a streamlined service that would enable them to travel out and home, and do their business on the London Wool Exchange all in one day, this new train was to be named the West Riding Limited. Two A4s were to be allocated to this service, but it was realised that the next engine Nº4496 would probably be ready in time but the following engine Nº 4497 certainly would not. In consequence Nº4495 was recalled to the works on 11/9/1937 to be given the Garter Blue livery and cut-out stainless steel letters and numbers, and the stainless steel strip to the bottom edge of the aerofoil casing and the tender. To further emphasize the Wool connection the engine was re-named Golden Fleece
The next engine Nº4497 reverted once again to the "Bird" theme, carrying the name Golden Plover, but a major policy decision had had to be made in respect of the livery worn by the A4s. To summarise the position at this date there were:- 4 Silver Grey engines, 3 Apple Green engines (with narrow parabolic curve), 5 Apple Green engines (with the all black smokebox), and 7 Garter Blue engines. With such a tapestry of colours, managing to match the colour of the engine to the various differing colours of the coaching stock was becoming something of a problem. So to solve the dilemma it was decided that all future A4s would have the Garter Blue livery and that existing engines, not so liveried, would receive the Garter Blue livery on their next visit to Works. So Nº4497 received what could be called the Garter Blue Economy Livery, as the standard Gold shaded Red transfers were used for the letters and numbers, instead of the stainless

hope this helps

[mick b]

Hi
Many thanks for the very interesting reply.
Can anyone assist further re information re post war A4's & Chrome Lettering. Especially were nameplates and workplates also finished in Chrome finish

thanks

Mick

[x568wcn]

In 1946, along with the renumbering scheme, a start was made in reinstating the Garter Blue Livery, the precursor to this was Nº4496 given the garter blue livery on 25/9/1945 on being renamed DWIGHT D EISENHOWER.

Having dealt with the renumbering in Part 6 and noted the re-application of Garter Blue livery as and when it coincided with the renumbering, some of the following, of necessity, unfortunately repeats parts of that information.

Nine months after Nº4496 was re-liveried, appropriately Nº2509 became the first engine to receive the Garter Blue livery, and cut out letters and numbers to truly inaugurate the commencement of the re-application of the Garter Blue livery on the A4s, leaving the Works after a Light Repair on 14/6/1946, and carrying its new number 14.

Next came Nº4492, to be renumbered 13, and receive the Garter Blue Livery, and presumably have the New Zealand Coat of Arms re-applied to the cab side, after a General Overhaul on 17/8/1946. Nº24 had been Nº 585 for a short period, and was then renumbered 24 at Haymarket Shed on 5/5/1946, leaving the Works on 31/8/1946 after a General Overhaul, with Garter Blue Livery, and cut out letters and numbers. Nº4482 was next to be re-liveried, leaving Works after a General Overhaul on 28/9/1946, but strangely still carrying its old number (4482, this and LNER presumably being applied in Gold Shaded Red Transfers). This situation was resolved when the engine returned to Works for a Non Classified Repair, and emerged on 22/11/1946 carrying a cut out 23 and LNER.

To avoid getting a repetitive strain injury from all the typing, please take it as read that all the engines in the following list, all received Garter Blue Livery and Cut Out letters and numbers on the dates shown.

Nº4499 to Nº2 --- General Overhaul 11/10/1946

Nº20 ---- General Overhaul 26/10/1946 (this Engine was only renumbered to 20 from 4465 on 15/9/1946, nine days before entering Works on 24/9/1946)

Nº4 ---- General Overhaul 14/11/1946

Nº4500 to Nº1 ---- General Overhaul 16/11/1946

Nº4490 to Nº11 ---- General Overhaul 30/11/1946 (Plaques Re-fitted ?)

Nº4495 to Nº30 ----General Overhaul 7/12/1946, this was the last engine to be renumbered at the Works. The remainder had all been renumbered previously, and received Garter Blue livery and the necessary Cut Out Letters and numbers as follows :-

Nº18 ---- General Overhaul 28/12/1946

Nº27 ---- General Overhaul 25/1/1947, prior to this, plaques from the Royal Naval Air Station, H.M.S. Merlin were fitted to the cab side on 25/6/1946.

Nº90 ---- General Overhaul 21/2/1947 (Plaques Re-fitted ?)

Nº70 ---- General Overhaul 06/3/1947

Nº19 ---- General Overhaul 07/3/1947

Nº60 ---- General Overhaul 02/4/1947

Nº21 ---- General Overhaul 30/4/1947

Nº32 ---- General Overhaul 03/5/1947

Nº16 ---- General Overhaul 10/5/1947

Nº29 ---- General Overhaul 04/6/1947

Nº30 ---- General Overhaul 21/6/1947

Nº30 ---- General Overhaul 21/6/1947

Nº31 ---- General Overhaul 01/8/1947

Nº12 ---- General Overhaul 09/8/1947 (Plaques Re-fitted ? )

Nº17 ---- General Overhaul 25/9/1947

Nº28 ---- General Overhaul 1/10/1947 and re-named WALTER K WHIGHAM (The then current Deputy Chairman).

Nº15 ---- General Overhaul 4/10/1947

Nº26 ---- General Overhaul 1/11/1947 and re-named MILES BEEVOR

Nº10 ---- General Overhaul 20/11/1947 (Plaques Re-fitted ?)

Nº33 ---- General Overhaul 5/12/1947

Nº34 ---- General Overhaul 10/12/1947

Nº25 ---- General Overhaul 31/12 1947 --- Officially the last A4 to be overhauled by the L.N.E.R.

BRITISH RAILWAYS came into being 1/1/1948, but unfortunately as no clear policy had been decided with regard to liveries, the individual works carried on as they had always done, painting the engines in their own liveries. The only concessions to indicate the new ownership were BRITISH RAILWAYS substituted for the former Company Titles, and eventually re-numbering into block sequences when the powers that be got themselves sorted out.

To confirm this lack of policy on liveries, Nº8 DWIGHT D EISENHOWER left the works after a Light Repair on 6/1/1948, still in Garter Blue and with its Stainless Steel Numbers and Letters still in place. Nº30 GOLDEN FLEECE followed suit, leaving works after a Light Repair on 19/1/1948. Nº29 WOODCOCK also retained its L.N.E.R. identity, leaving works on 19/1/1948 after a Light repair, with livery, numbers and letters still intact. In fact the livery, numbers and letters survived another visit to works on 28/2/1948 for another Light Repair. However Nº4 WILLIAM WHITELAW did not fare so well, ex- works from a General Overhaul the day after Nº29 on 20/1/1948, it carried a suffix E painted above the Stainless Steel 4 on the cab side, and with the letters removed from the tender and replaced by a hand painted BRITISH RAILWAYS, in 9" high Silver / White Letters. Strangely the Nºon the front was still shown as 4, in 7½" high Silver / White, but without the E suffix, and the Garter Blue Livery was retained. Next out of works was Nº5 SIR CHARLES NEWTON after a General Overhaul, on 28/1/1948, regaining its Garter Blue Livery, Nº5, and L.N.E.R.. This seems to be the last of the class to truly regain its L.N.E.R. identity despite now being in B.R. ownership. Engines passing through the works from hereon received the Garter Blue Livery until a positive decision was made on the New British Railways livery in 1949, that is apart from four engines that were repainted in an experimental Livery in Mid 1948 (More of this later).

Next with the E suffix and BRITISH RAILWAYS was Nº21 WILD SWAN out of works on 5/2/1948 after a General Overhaul. In works, for a General Overhaul from 16/1/1948 until 5/3/1948, Nº 22 MALLARD was the last engine to regain the Garter Blue Livery. (After the Wartime Black.) It got the Stainless Steel Nº22, with E suffix, but sadly never got the L.N.E.R. on the tender, having to settle for the painted BRITISH RAILWAYS. The plaques to commemorate the World Speed Record were also fitted at this time. Leaving Works after a General Overhaul on 11/3/1948 Nº27 MERLIN was the last recipient of the E suffix.

By now the major decision to renumber the British Railways Locomotive Fleet had been taken, and this had the effect of adding 60000 to the existing numbers of the Ex- L.N.E.R. Locomotives. So the number sequence for the A4 Class would be 60001 to 60034.

The first engine to receive its new number was 60007 SIR NIGEL GRESLEY, ex – works from a Light Repair on 24/3/1948. Garter Blue was retained, the cab side had 12" high Silver / White numbers, the Tender had 9" high Silver / White letters, and the front number between the buffers was 5½" or 6" high in Silver / White Paint (can anyone confirm the height of the front numbers, the R.C.T.S. Part 2A quotes 7½" high, but I think this is wrong. Looking at the photos of Locomotives so numbered leads me to believe that the 5½" or 6" dimension is more correct). Two other engines received this style of re-numbering, Nº60034 on leaving the works from a Non Classified Repair on 24/3/1948, the engine being also re-named LORD FARRINGDON at this date. Nº 60023 was the only other engine to receive this re-numbering style leaving the works after a General Overhaul on 25/3/1948.

From hereon the front number on the locomotives would be displayed on a plate with integrally cast 4¼" high numbers, this plate to be fixed on suitable brackets on the slope of the streamlined front, just above the boiler centre line. These numbers were to be in the Gill Sans style, which was not unfamiliar to the former L.N.E.R., however for some strange reason when casting the new plates Doncaster used what is described as Modified Gill Sans, which curled the tail of the six over, and the tail of the nine under. The Modified Six had also been used in the painted cabside and front numbers to 60007, 60034 and 60023 above. Nº60033 was the first to be fitted with the new front plate emerging from a Non Classified Repair on 16/4/1948, again some of the paperwork gives the date of re- numbering as 10/4/1949, when the engine was still in the works. Nº 60009 General Overhaul 5/5/1948, Nº60002 General Overhaul 14/5/1948, and Nº 60013 General Overhaul 25/5/1948 were the next to be renumbered.



Nº60027 left the works on 2/6/1948. With the application of the cab side lining panel space was at a premium, so the plaques from H.M.S. Merlin were moved on to the middle cladding panel on the Boiler.

The introduction of the lined panel on the cab side also meant that the 12" high numerals would not fit the space available, so in consequence they had to be reduced to 9" high, which made them match up with the 9" high lettering on the tender.

Nº60031 left the works after general Overhaul on 4/6/1948, followed three days later by the "Purple" liveried Nº60028 after a Light Repair on 7/6/1948. Nº 60016 followed next on 11/6/1948 after a General Overhaul. Another "Purple" Liveried engine was next, Nº60024 leaving after a General Overhaul on 18/6/1948.

Nº5 which had managed to avoid getting its B.R. number in January 1948 became Nº60005 on leaving works after a Non Classified Repair on 9/7/1948. Next out of works after a General overhaul was 60001 leaving on 14/7/1948. Nº60029 became the fourth A4 to be given the "Purple" Livery, the official date being given as 16/7/1948, for completion of the General Overhaul. The engine may have been retained by the works for an open day which was possibly held at the end of the month. I may be wrong on the date , but I certainly remember a brand new Nº 60114 standing out in the yard, and climbing onto the footplate of WOODCOCK in the Paint Shop, and exiting via the Corridor Tender. The next engine to leave the plant was over in the shops, No 60030 GOLDEN FLEECE nearing the completion of a General Overhaul, duly leaving on 30/7/1948. NºE-21 was next to be renumbered during a Light Repair, leaving as Nº60021 on 29/9/1948, closely followed by Nº60020 on 1/10/1948 after a General Overhaul.

On the 8/10/1948 Nº60007 left the works on completion of a General Overhaul, which had been so timed as to enable the engine to be used for the opening ceremony at the new Rugby Testing Station on 19/10/1948. The front number plate was fitted at this time, superseding the previously painted number. Both the cab numbers and tender letters were of the same height, 9", in Silver/White Paint. Nº60019 and No 60018 were next out of works after General Overhauls on 14/10/1948 and 16/10/1948 respectively. Nº10 was in works for a Light Repair 16-27/10/1948, emerging with its new number 60010, but unfortunately without its cab side Canadian Plaques, which were never re-fitted.

Nº60008, General Overhaul, 29/10/1948 ---- Nº60006, General Overhaul, 2/12/1948 ---- Nº60015, Light Repair, 17/12/1948 ---- Nº60003, General Overhaul, 4/3/1949 ---- Nº60011, General Overhaul, 17/3/1949 ---- Nº60017, General Overhaul, 27/4/1949, complete the list of engines which received B.R. numbers on to their Garter Blue Livery


At the beginning of May 1949 there were still four A4 Class engines at work in Garter Blue Livery and carrying their L.N.E.R. numbers, namely Nos. 14, 25, 26, and 32. There was one other engine in Garter Blue and carrying the temporary B.R. number, and that was E-22 Mallard.

Any better?

[mick b]

Hi
Fantastic response for which i and i am sure ,will be very grateful. However!!!!! i doesnt answer the question re Name and works plates chrome or brass!!?? I'l keep looking!!

thanks again

Mick

[x568wcn]

Dunno, plates went from red to black at some point, and after loads of looking, I have just noticed this week, that the 2 Silver Links in the NRM, one is red and one is black!

They were brass to start off with, so unless replaced, they and the name plates would also be brass I would sugest.

I'm a little iffy on the plates, and would like to know when they changed colour?