52F Models A5/1 kit

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45609
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52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by 45609 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:11 pm

Hello,

I posted this in another place and after a quick search of the forum found very few results mentioning 52F models.

I just noticed on this page (about half way down) of the 52F models website that an A5/1 is being developed. Pictures of the A5/2 built up look like it is a pretty high specification kit. I'll be taking a close look at this at Railex NE the weekend after next.

Cheers....Morgan
Last edited by 45609 on Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

39ATank
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Re: 52F Models Website

Post by 39ATank » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:01 pm

Did you manage to see the new 52F kits at Railex? I've recently looked at their website, and seen some photos. I'm a bit concerned as to where Peter Stanger obtained the drawings for the boiler fittings shown in the early shots of what I presume is the A5/1. They don't bear any resemblance to the boiler fittings I recognise through seeing many A5/1's in the 1950's, as we lived by the ex-GC main line just east of Manchester. I used to go to school next to Gorton Works. Nor do they resemble any of the numerous photos I have in various publications, of these locos in GC, LNER or BR ownership. The chimneys particularly, should be shaped like what I call the Quaker's hat, almost identical to those on the D10 and D11/1's. And the Gorton domes I saw were rather different to what 52F say is a 'Gorton' dome in their prototype model photo. The A5/2 looks somewhat better, although the angle of the shot doesn't show it to best advantage. I don't want to be critical of what I consider to be a potentially good, new supplier to the trade. But if these offerings are intended for the 'more discerning modeller', they should surely be right. It's like an artist's portrait of someone, where they haven't got the nose or mouth right; it doesn't really look like the person it is intended to. I'm sure 52F wouldn't want to 'spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar!'

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Re: 52F Models Website

Post by Horsetan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:47 pm

39ATank wrote:.....It's like an artist's portrait of someone, where they haven't got the nose or mouth right; it doesn't really look like the person it is intended to.....
As generations of waxworks museums have demonstrated! :mrgreen:

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Re: 52F Models Website

Post by IAK » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:16 pm

I believe the word "prototype" may be significant?
Small additional increments are transformative.

http://padgateworks.wordpress.com/

Bill Bedford
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Re: 52F Models Website

Post by Bill Bedford » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:55 am

He did a write up on this in the last MRJ(210). There is a paragraph about obtaining the drawings for the frames, which is a good laugh for those in the know.

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52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by 45609 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:22 am

39ATank wrote:Did you manage to see the new 52F kits at Railex? I've recently looked at their website, and seen some photos. I'm a bit concerned as to where Peter Stanger obtained the drawings for the boiler fittings shown in the early shots of what I presume is the A5/1. They don't bear any resemblance to the boiler fittings I recognise through seeing many A5/1's in the 1950's, as we lived by the ex-GC main line just east of Manchester. I used to go to school next to Gorton Works. Nor do they resemble any of the numerous photos I have in various publications, of these locos in GC, LNER or BR ownership. The chimneys particularly, should be shaped like what I call the Quaker's hat, almost identical to those on the D10 and D11/1's. And the Gorton domes I saw were rather different to what 52F say is a 'Gorton' dome in their prototype model photo. The A5/2 looks somewhat better, although the angle of the shot doesn't show it to best advantage. I don't want to be critical of what I consider to be a potentially good, new supplier to the trade. But if these offerings are intended for the 'more discerning modeller', they should surely be right. It's like an artist's portrait of someone, where they haven't got the nose or mouth right; it doesn't really look like the person it is intended to. I'm sure 52F wouldn't want to 'spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar!'
I'm very much with you on this one. I did see the test etch parts at the show in Newcastle along with a built up example of the A5/2. Unfortunately Peter had not turned up the A5/1 chimney or any of the other master parts. When I first saw the picture of the chimney on the website I e-mailed him and expressed very similar concerns. In his reply he assured me he had the drawings and had turned the chimney to the correct dimensions. To be perfectly honest I'm still not 100% convinced that it is right but until I get the kit I have on order delivered it is hard to be conclusive. I will certainly report back when I have more information.

Cheers....Morgan

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by Bill Bedford » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:21 am

mlgilbert30 wrote: When I first saw the picture of the chimney on the website I e-mailed him and expressed very similar concerns. In his reply he assured me he had the drawings and had turned the chimney to the correct dimensions. To be perfectly honest I'm still not 100% convinced that it is right but until I get the kit I have on order delivered it is hard to be conclusive. I will certainly report back when I have more information.
.....but note what he said about the drawings he used for the kit in the last MRJ (210).

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by Horsetan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:38 pm

For those who don't read MRJ, he used Isinglass 7mm scale drawings.

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by 45609 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:03 pm

Bill Bedford wrote:.....but note what he said about the drawings he used for the kit in the last MRJ (210).
Yes Bill, I was aware of him using the Isinglass drawing and scaling dimensions from the line profile. Obviously this can be dodgy if the line drawing is not quite right. The final check should be against some photographs to see if the shape looks correct. The boiler fittings contribute so much of the character of the locomotive that getting it wrong IMO spoils the whole job.

Compare these 2 pictures

Image

Image

I know that the lower photo is the late LNER/BR version of the GCR chimney produced by Gorton but I've looked at some GC period prototype photos and it looks very similar. Obviously something is quite wrong with the chimney master. It could be the top flange is too small but my feeling is that the waist is far too fat. In addition I'd say there needs to be more height to the lip on the top. What I don't know at the moment is how it could have turned out like this. Unfortunately I don't have the Isinglass drawing (I'll be ordering it for interest). My experience is that John Edgson's work was always pretty good but as you will know it is always better to use official railway drawings if you can get your hands on them. I have an OPC GA for the A5 somwhere but a search this evening has failed to turn it up. I'll have another look tomorrow. For those in "the know" it is clear that this will not "have all the dimensions" on it but it may offer different information. In the meantime I'll drop Peter Stanger another e-mail to see if this can be sorted out before the kit is released.

As a parting shot for now I have also found this online.
diagram-lner-a5.jpg
The chimney profile on this weights diagram looks close to the turned brass chimney. Surely not either on the Isinglass drawing or by 52F.......?

Cheers....Morgan

P.S. I also think there is also something subtly wrong with the shape of the dome.

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by Bill Bedford » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:24 pm

mlgilbert30 wrote:
Bill Bedford wrote:.....but note what he said about the drawings he used for the kit in the last MRJ (210).
Yes Bill, I was aware of him using the Isinglass drawing and scaling dimensions from the line profile. Obviously this can be dodgy if the line drawing is not quite right.
That's not quite the problem. All John Edgson's drawings were done at 4mm scale and the 7mm ones just blown up from 4mm masters.

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by mick b » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:44 pm

Dome appears to angled , in the photo sides appear straight.

If it is wrong a great shame as he has some good products.

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by 45609 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:17 pm

Bill Bedford wrote:That's not quite the problem. All John Edgson's drawings were done at 4mm scale and the 7mm ones just blown up from 4mm masters.
Interesting.... so any error he set out to eliminate by using the 7mm drawing would already be built in
Last edited by 45609 on Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by mick b » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:18 pm

and enlarged tooooooooooo

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by Pebbles » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:56 pm

Before we get carried away the two relevent Isinglass drawing have large scale "dimensioned" chimney drawings.

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Re: 52F Models A5/1 kit

Post by 45609 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:24 am

Good evening (morning),

It's late so this is only a brief update. I've been in touch with Peter Stanger (Mr. 52F) and he seems happy to take advice on the chimney shape. I'm in receipt of his drawing and the rationale for the dimensions he has used. I'll elaborate when I have more time. I've also found my OPC list drawing. This is ref 13118 for anyone that has been browsing the online NRM lists that JW has told us about in another thread here. Progress this evening has been to model up the original GCR chimney by using the meagre basic dimensions and scaling the rest by ratios. The picture below shows the current state of the 3D model. Later this week I'll double check this preliminary model by scanning the paper image into the CAD software and seeing if it matches up. After that I'll move onto the LNER "plant pot" and later Gorton pseudo GCR chimney that was fitted in preference to the plant pots.
A5_GCR_Chimney_(OPC)_1_side.jpg
Cheers.....Morgan
Last edited by 45609 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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