Modelling a place on the LNER

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LNERandBR
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Post by LNERandBR » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:40 am

Colombo wrote:JD,

what kind of automatic couplings
I have designed my OO gauge layout to use DG Couplings. these have a delayed action allowing you to place a wagon anywhere on the layout after passing over an electromagnet.

you can get them for N gauge and my brother is planning to convert all his stock to use them.

(PS: I have no intreset in them other then being a satisfied customer)
By Stephen

Mad about the LNER, BR Eastern region in the 50's, Rail Blue Diesels and Sectorisation era.

jdtoronto
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Post by jdtoronto » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:23 pm

Hi Stephen,

Here in North America it seems that everybody uses Micro-Trains (the N scale Kadee). In HO their are a couple of alternatives I understand (names such as McHenry spring to mind), but not for N.

Sadly the DG couplings people dont give any info on their website, so maybe someone here has a sheet they could scan? I am ALWAYS open to alternatives, if they work!

John

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New photographs found

Post by jdtoronto » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:08 pm

My search for information on Alnwick and Alnmouth continues, but just to add some news here: I got delivery of two new books today. The one I found mist useful so far is "LNER Sheds in Camera", John Hooper, Oxford Publishing Comapny 1984. Plates 75 & 76 show two good views of the Alnmouth Shed, one in 1952 and one in 1964.

Both photographs clearly show the raised coaling ramp with "two balanced tipping platforms to aid hand coaling".

This is quite fortuitous, as the larger Tweedmouth shed to the north, on the mainline, doesn't rate a photograph at all. There is, however, an interesting photograph of the pre-Grouping shed at Berwick-upon-Tweed which shows the locomotives in the shed all with tenders facing the turntable.

Also interesting to note, in photographs fomr teh 1960's Colombo observed that the turntable at Alnwick was hidden amongst a lot of overgrowth. The Hooper book describes it as being a 42ft turntable - too small for a J39 but probably okay for the tanks used there earlier.

A huge load of books arrived today, so I will prepare my list and post it here over the holiday weekend.

John

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Colombo
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Post by Colombo » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:00 pm

John,

The 42 ft turntable was quite small, but probably large enough to turn a very small tender engine, because you have to take the overhang at each end into account. For example, an A1 was nearly 73 ft long, but could be turned on a 70 foot turntable.

A J25, introduced in 1898, was 51 ft long and I would have expected that to be turned. The D20s and J39s were 56' 7" and 55'8" respectively, so perhaps not. On the other hand, I expect that they used a lot of old 2-4-0 tender engines in the old days, and for example the GER class E4 2-4-0 (although I think not appearing at Alnmouth/Alnwick), was 49 ft long. A V1 tank was 42' long, but I would not expect them to turn tank locos.

So a good question to ask is : what locos, if any, were being turned at Alnwick?

Colombo

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Post by jdtoronto » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:20 pm

Colombo wrote:John,

The 42 ft turntable was quite small, but probably large enough to turn a very small tender engine, because you have to take the overhang at each end into account.

<snipped>

So a good question to ask is : what locos, if any, were being turned at Alnwick?

Colombo
Well, very good question indeed!

According to Hoole, in "North Eastern Branch Lines Since 1925", during the period up until 1957, Alnmouth shed "hosted a small stud of ageing North Eastern 0-4-0's working to Newcastle and Berwick, and also until 1930 on teh Alnwick - Coldstream service." He goes on to say that after 1957, when the last of the 0-4-0's went for scrap that Alnmouth shed services were carried on by V1, V3 and K1 class loco's. D17/1's and D20's were common also.

Maybe this explains why in the 1952 photograph the water tower and turntable area is nice and clean, but by the early 60's, it is almost totally overgrown. It was only a small turntable and thus wasn't being used. I suspect that the same may have happened at Alnmouth.

Distilling information from various sources, it seems that their were some through services from Newcastle to Alnwick and on to Berwick via the Coldstream branch which was freight only from 1930. A comment is made that trains from Berwick would have to reverse at Alnwick. I suppose they pulled into the freight sidings and the loco would 'run around' and then pull the train on to Alnmouth, or even Newcastle.

John

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Post by jdtoronto » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:21 am

In the moidst of a horrific bout of work I received a wonderful new book on Friday.

North Eastern Branch Line Termini by Ken Hoole.

It has a wonderful chapter, the entire first chapter, on my chosen branch line terminal; Alnwick. There is a wonderfully detailed collection of photographs, drawings of the buildings and it also includes detailed track plans and are layout drawings. SOme buildings I had never seen or heard mention of elsewhere. Just east of the station yard their is a road bridge. The original Alnwick signal box was a pretty standard NE construction, but when the new station was built in 1885 it was decided that the bridge obstructed too much of the view - so they built a rather impressive looking three storey signal box so that the signalmen could see over the bridge!

But for now it is back to the salt mine - I will see you all again in a few weeks when I surface again.

John

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John B
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Modelling a place on the LNER

Post by John B » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:43 am

John,

Before you disappear back to Siberia and your pet salt mine would you please have a look at your Ken Hoole book and see if it has any information regarding the termini at Hornsea?

Ken Hoole was the editor of Volume 1 of that "other" railway located in Yorkshire, the Hull and Barnsley Railway, published in 1972, so he has some knowledge of my old neck of the woods.

I see from my pregrouping atlas that Alnmouth had an engine shed to the left side of the ECML. Alnwick was located on a line from Alnmouth to Edlingham, Whittingham, glanton, Wooperton (great name that) Ilderton, Wooler, Akeld, Kirknewton, Mindrum and Coldstream at which point the line goes east to Berwick and west to Sprouston. The question in my mind is were trains turned round at Alnwick before heading off to Edlingham et al, or was some equally cunning but different plan adopted??

Cheers
John B

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Bullhead
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Re: Modelling a place on the LNER

Post by Bullhead » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:26 am

John B wrote:Would you please have a look at your Ken Hoole book and see if it has any information regarding the termini at Hornsea?
I've relied heavily on a copy of the same (excellent) book for modelling purposes - it contains six chapters of comprehensive scale drawings, photos, and extensive descriptive text for these ex-NER locations:
  • Alnwick
    Alston
    Guisborough
    Middleton in Teesdale
    Richmond
    Whitby
Nothing on other pre-grouping companies' stations, unfortunately.
John B wrote:Were trains turned round at Alnwick before heading off to Edlingham et al, or was some equally cunning but different plan adopted??
I think the Alnwick - Wooler - Cornhill service was separate to the Alnwick - ECML service, with passengers changing at Alnwick between the two. The Wooler line was occasionally used as a diversionary route (especially during WW2, apparently), so I imagine that in these circumstances ECML services would have run from Alnwick to Tweedmouth in reverse formation - whether they changed engines at Alnwick, turned whatever was on the top (depending on turntable size), or just ran tender-first, I don't know.
So - did anyone dare tell Stephenson, "It's not Rocket science"?

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Post by jdtoronto » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:49 pm

Yes, it is an excellent book.

The turntable at Alnwick was 50ft. So they could easilly have turned any of the locomotives used on the Coldstream line I would think. I have seen many references to locoś being turned at Alnwick, including some that specially journeyed there because of a lack of turntables close by for turning engines for the NCB. But their are probably more references to the Coldstream/Wooler trains reversing at Alnwock to go down to Alnmouth. Any traffic that was going beyond Alnwick had to go into the station, there is no provision for a bypass at all.

If you look at the track plan for Alnwick it is obvious that a loco could either ŕun around its train or use the turntable.

Fortuantely I can use the lpatop remotely to access my desktop machine now! So I am no longer in Siberia, but it does feel like Coventry sometimes..

John

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John B
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Post by John B » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:46 am

John,

Thanks, that just about answers my query about locos either having to be either turned or run around the train at Alnwick ready to run the train out and along the line to Wooler and all stations beyond.

Logic (ha! I hear you say) would seem to suggest that if the loco could not be turned at Alnwick (too big for the turntable or the turntable out of action) then it would lead the train out from Alnmouth and go to Alnwick tender first, then, when it ran round to the front of the train at Alnwick it would be facing the "right" way to on journey to Wooler and other select places beyond.

It's a shame there was no bypass at Alnwick as this would have made locomotive operations simpler and quicker.

A remote laptop does seem like a utopian answer to as well as being significantly more user friendly than salt mining in Siberia. As for Coventry, well I just cannot bear to speak of it :-) - it's like a reverse image of Daventry which is where they "send" you by engaging you in non-stop conversation?

I now have to face a full on day at the chalkface, seems very much like a saltmine at times, 'cept I have the benefit of being down here in the South Pacific :wink:

Cheers
John B

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Post by jdtoronto » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:18 pm

Having been temporarily released from Siberia for a week or two I arrived home in the early hours of this morning. Not too many hours later the postie was knocking on the door and he had a little package from Union Mill's Models!

It is my two nice shiny (well matte actually) new J39's. I couldn't resist, I had to run downstairs and try one out. It happily pulled 6 Minitrix teaks up a 1.5% grade and I am not actually certain that it knew they were there!

Now all I need is an A4 that will run like that!

John

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