Make do and Mend - with multiple girders

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drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:05 pm

Well, there seem to be a lot of cattle wagons around these days.
Here are my latest ones completed.
Post_05.jpg
(Except for the vacuum pipes. which I seem to have run out of. I think I might be able to fabricate them with a little imagination and luck!)
Post_06.jpg

The pictures were taken in real sunlight in the new railway room! I should have managed those window blinds better. When I've done some more work this might be a good place for photographs. Just means blocking the Down Main for a while!

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:17 pm

Dave: Vacuum pipes. Now that wire wound brass ones are apparently no longer offered by Markits, we obviously need an option that will stand up to the rough and tumble of use and handling. Whitemetal ones are a bit stronger than some of the plastic versions, and an idea I've read but not tried is simply to cut a thread on the last few mm of some suitable brass wire, to represent the reinforced hose, and then bend up the wire to represent both the plain stand-pipe and the curved, ribbed hose. In quantity, the pipes produced could be quite cheap, but acquiring a suitable die to cut the thread creates initial cost. "Jeweller's" tap and die sets seem to be available down to 0.7mm at any rate, for example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jewellers-Wat ... 1917755229
Bachmann A2 to A2/3: from my thread in Model Railways page 56 to 83, also

Hornby A3 to A1/1 Great Northern: from page 84, in resin from page 108.


Apologies for so many missing images - see page 1 for reasons & possible solution.

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by Atso » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:47 am

Nice work on those cattle wagons drmditch! They remind me that I've got some 2mm scale etched kits to finish up and convert to N gauge!
Atlantic 3279 wrote:Dave: Vacuum pipes. Now that wire wound brass ones are apparently no longer offered by Markits, we obviously need an option that will stand up to the rough and tumble of use and handling. Whitemetal ones are a bit stronger than some of the plastic versions, and an idea I've read but not tried is simply to cut a thread on the last few mm of some suitable brass wire, to represent the reinforced hose, and then bend up the wire to represent both the plain stand-pipe and the curved, ribbed hose. In quantity, the pipes produced could be quite cheap, but acquiring a suitable die to cut the thread creates initial cost. "Jeweller's" tap and die sets seem to be available down to 0.7mm at any rate, for example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jewellers-Wat ... 1917755229
Graeme,

I'm not sure if this is viable in 4mm but for vacuum pipes in N gauge I use some wound guitar wire. To produce the plain stand-pipe, I simply unwind the wire to the appropriate point and bend to shape - if you want to get creative some of the thin winding can be salvaged and used to make a representation of the bracket on the stand pipe as will. This reminds me that I've got quite a bit of stock currently without vacuum pipes and I really need to get around to making some more!

Possibly less effort than cutting threads if a suitable thickness of wound wire can be obtained.
Steve
Atso-Cad Models
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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:59 pm

Vacuum pipes from 51L now added. A quick solution, but the cast detail tends to get obscured by my clumsy painting.
Post_09.JPG
Also from 51L is an ex-NER Medium Cattle wagon, and this is the first white-metal kit I've built for a while.
Post_07.jpg
I was worried that as first assembled, the roofline appeared to be a bit high compared with Tatlow Volume 2, and the equivalent heights of the LNER built vehicles. However, in the train it doesn't seem to stand out too badly.

I did manage to solder the W irons to the solebars with this one. I was quite pleased with my variable-temperature iron, low-melt solder and white-metal flux. However, after one failed attempt I chickened out of soldering the sides to the ends.
Obviously there must be a relationship between temperature, dwell-time, and the amount of mass acting as a heat sink. I'm sure I've seen some guidance on this forum or elsewhere. Perhaps some skilled person could tell me where!
Post_08.JPG
So, despite trusting to superglue, here is the completed vehicle. It hasn't come out too badly, despite the brake blocks not being in line with the wheels. Unfortunately by the time I realised that I'd already soldered them in place and the architecture for the floor (a slab of 2mm plastic) didn't allow me to correct them. I have another one to make, but I think that is going to be an unfitted version so won't have quite the same problem!

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by John Palmer » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:12 pm

Nicely executed finishing of that NER Oxfit - I particularly like the subtlety of the weathering.

I haven't previously seen a picture of this design with angled attachment of the springs to the J hangers. Was this a feature of NER practice?

For white metal soldering, there are a number of posts in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8252&start=45. My personal preference is to use a big, high wattage bit for most soldering. This is particularly apposite when joining large lumps of white metal, whose mass is likely to drain the limited reservoir of heat in a small bit and lengthen the 'dwell time' required to bring the joint area up to necessary temperature. My experience is that this increases the risk of leaving the bit in proximity to the job for too long and the casting collapsing into a molten puddle. Lots of heat and a very quick 'in and out' work better for me.

This has prompted me to re-read the relevant passages in Iain Rice's 'White Metal Loco Locos - a Kitbuilder's Guide', which seems to confirm what I have written above. He is a strong advocate of the liberal use of flux. Soak the whole joint area with it, go in with 'groß poker', and dwell only whilst the flux is hissing and boiling.

Rather than prodding at the job with a stick of solder as the iron is applied, my practice increasingly is to pare off a minuscule amount of solder and lay it adjacent to the joint to be formed. This tends to work better with brass and nickel silver, where I can be more sparing with the flux, since the solder fragment is liable otherwise to be displaced by the boiling of the flux. For white metal I would put a larger solder flake in place to inhibit this. It is surprising how little solder is required to make a good, strong joint that requires minimal cleaning up and removal of excess after it is made.

drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:13 am

John Palmer wrote:Nicely executed finishing of that NER Oxfit - I particularly like the subtlety of the weathering.

I haven't previously seen a picture of this design with angled attachment of the springs to the J hangers. Was this a feature of NER practice?
Thank you. I always try to represent a coal-fired, coal-hauling railway in the days well before the Clean Air Acts.

The casting for the W irons, axlebox covers, springs, and J Hangers is in one piece as supplied by 51L.
Your question worried me however, so I did some research in Mr Tatlow's books and various NERA publications.

The best illustration of the NER J Hanger assembly is Tatlow Vol2, Page 36 top right. I have tried to reproduce the main features here:-
Post_10.jpg
- Pictures of NER vehicles with J Hangers and secondary coil springs show that the angle of the coil springs varied at the time of the photograph.

- Since there is no fixed connection between the coil spring and the bottom part of the hanger, then the 'angle' of the spring will be driven by the load on the leaf spring and how far the wagon body is pressing down upon it. Ie, in my diagram Rotation Point A will move left or right in relation to Rotation Point B.

- Under load the leaf spring will be 'flatter', and thus the ends will be further apart and the links to the secondary (coil) spring (RP A) will attempt to push the shaft of the coil assembly further outwards.

- Since this shaft must go through a hole in the bottom of the hanger (RP B) , then under load one would expect to see the coil assembly vertical or even sloping 'inwards'.

- With no load it would be reasonable to expect them to slope 'outwards'.

Variable factors include :-

- the initial designed unloaded curvature of the leaf spring
- load
- wear (and thus 'flatness') of the leaf spring
- wear in the linkages and especially in the hole on the bottom of the hanger through which the coil passes (RP B) .
- If this latter wears oval then the angle of the coil will be variable!

I hope I understand the engineering; if not I'm sure some better informed person will correct me!

I suspect that 51L have used the same casting for some of their other NER vehicles, such as Fish and other vans, (pictures of which do clearly show the outward slope). Other pictures of older and loaded vehicles show a mixture of angles so my analysis would appear to be correct.

I am glad that my Cattle Wagons are not loaded. It does save all the bother of having to water the poor animals; and although I'm not sure how much water plastic cattle need, I haven't unpacked my water cranes or tanks yet!

However- shock horror - my model has S2 axlebox covers (as clearly stated by 51L), and the vehicle I've modeled should have S3 axlebox covers!
A little surgery may be required, but I don't think that it will be on the priority list.

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by John Palmer » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:22 pm

Interesting exposition on scroll iron/J hanger design.

I get the point about the longitudinal displacement of spring ends away from each other as they are subjected to load. I referred to Surrey Warner's contribution upon carriage and wagon construction in 'Railway Mechanical Engineering', which includes a diagram showing how the bore through the scroll iron (to use his nomenclature) is profiled to accommodate the resulting displacement of the secondary coil carrier. I've tried to show this in the attached diagram.

The difference I was driving at is shown in the middle and right illustrations on my diagram. On the right hand diagram, the extension to the scroll iron through which the secondary coil carrier passes is angled downwards rather than being horizontal, as in the middle diagram. Looking at the photographs in the Peter Tatlow volume dealing with NER wagons, it appears that this company used both kinds. For example, the Diag.F6 fish vans and Diag.F10 refrigerator vans respectively shown on pages 89 and 92 have the inclined type. By contrast the cattle trucks shown on pages 161-2 appear to have the horizontal type, and it was this that prompted my query.
Scroll iron variations.jpg

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:33 pm

Thank you. Your diagram is much better than my rough sketch.
Clearly the NER did use both types, and my model is clearly wrong!

Bother!

I will now have to think of a way of rectifying it.

(although equally clearly, older/loaded vehicles show the secondary coils at several different angles. One picture (Op Cit Page 91) almost appears to show both types. Perhaps these hangers were made individually in a blacksmiths shop, and the precise angles varied?)

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by john coffin » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:54 pm

In my earlier research into carriages. I found a number of interesting differences between the springs used.

Until the introduction of the Steam Hammer, invented by Naysmith in around 1840, carriage springs, both road and railway were hand beaten,
which meant that there was no consistency between the various types, plus as they were installed, they created areas where water could collect
and cause a great deal of rusting. It was also difficult in the early days to guess how much load the springs could accept, and many vehicles had
different springs for the same load.

Later with more mass production, and more physics involved in working out spring rates and so on, it became more easy to produce a "standard" spring.
But for instance the fish vans that I have seen have a loading of around 8 tons, but it is a stable load, which does not move in transit, whereas the cattle wagons, having a live load, had a different spring need, due to the static dynamics. So it is almost certain that by the time of the diagram used for the cattle wagon, the NER would have had a number of different angles for the mounting points to create the right load, and also help with the dampening of the spring oscillation.

Frankly, if it is a looking model then do all the mods, if not and you are using it regularly wtf??
Paul

drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:56 pm

Thank you Paul. I'm sure you must be correct. My blacksmith idea was probably far to early! With a potential total weight of sixteen tons (or a bit over) each of the J hangers would have to cope with at least two tons. So the engineering was probably quite precise. Of course, all my points above about wear and elongation of apertures would remain true.

As to correcting the model - well - it's one of those things isn't it. I'm sure I have many inadequate vehicles of one kind or other running on my railway, and all modelling has to compromise somewhere. But - now I know it's wrong.........

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:16 pm

I hope people will excuse yet another picture of the J54 shown on pages 14 to 16 of this thread, but this one, thanks to LNER4479 and Jwealleans, is rather special.
Re-creation of Green Book BandW.jpg
This is a re-creation of Fig.30 in Part 8A of the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER, which was one of the photographs I used to make the build.
Grantham station is thanks to LNER4479, and his brilliant team, and the ex GE Horsebox is from the stable of Jwealleans.

Now I must really get on with my new railway.

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by LNER4479 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:28 pm

:D :D :D :D :D
'Robert' (the Devil)
(recreating pre-war Grantham in model form viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9076. Forthcoming exhibition appearances: Hartlepool (Oct 2017), Lincoln (Feb 2018), Ally-Pally (March 2018)

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by drmditch » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:49 pm

During the last ten months most of my modelling time has been taken up by the carpentry needed for my new railway. It's taken longer than I had expected, although I keep forgetting that the previous railway took much longer! It's my fault for building a complex three level structure with a 'swing out' bridge and a (longer) cross-room lift out viaduct.

I've been using a separate thread in 'the other place' ....here... to record this, and I will update it again when I've worked out to take some sensible pictures of the recent works!

Meanwhile, I have managed to do a little 'actual modelling'. Added to my cattle train (see above) is now this LMS Dia 1840 fitted wagon.
Post_14.JPG
This uses the same excellent Parkside kit as the Diagram 1661 wagons above, and parts of the most useful LMS fitted underframe also available from Parkside. The Dia 1840 design like the 1661 has timber solebars and an 11' wheelbase, so a bit of careful 'cross-kitting was needed.

Lest anyone complain that this is an LNER forum (and after reminders about the relative numbers of LNER and LMS cattle wagons, not to mention the common user arrangements by 1946/7), here is some actual LNE (ex GN) construction. I was going to wait until there was more progress, but I thought some pictures of work so far might be of interest.
Post_11.JPG
This is an attempt at the ex-GN 19' long 10' wheelbase vehicle, (drawn on Tatlow Volume 1 page 79) using as the starting point the Parkside kit PC50 for the later 9' wheelbase wagon. My vehicle is to be in late LNER condition, so I am using an illustration on Mr Banks' admirable website .... here.... as my guide. (Scroll three quarters of the way down the page to see the photograph I've used.)

The problem, as several people who are better modellers than I am have pointed out, is that the width of the door on the GN wagon is 4' compared with 5' on the LNER one. One solution (which I think Mr Wealleans demonstrated a while ago) would be to make the 18'2" wagon, with the four end posts. I may yet do this as a future project. However, for this model I decided to do things the hard way, and rebuild the side mouldings within the Parkside frame. To get the new horizontal vertical and horizontal frames in the correct place I marked up a simple jig on the clean board I build my plastic kits on. Offcuts of MDF are very useful for this! Since the sides of a cattle wagon do not provide much material to scribe planks without risking distortion, I built the sides up using Evergreen strip No.135 (.75mm x 2.5mm) strip, with some cheating with No.134 (.75mm x 2.0mm). To ensure that these do not fit too flush - and hide the planking entirely - I bevelled the edges before fitting them. To make fitting easier, some additional thin plastic was used on the 'inside'.
Post_12.JPG
(I will replace this picture with a better one, when I can arrange some better light!)

When all has set, the reinforcement has to be cut out to clear the gaps in the planking. Sharp scalpel blades are essential for this project!

The doors need to be be built up separately, and to make the whole thing more solid I made them in 'three ply' as thick as the doorframe members. Trying to retain some of the Parkside moulded detail I cut out and thinned down the diagonal members. They aren't quite long enough, but this is masked by the later-fitted reinforcing plates at the bottom of the door frames.

The additional reinforcing plastic will require some slight modifications to the ends and floor, but I don't think that this will be an insuperable problem. The sides are now nearly finished. I am adding the door-strapping and the various bolt heads.

I have a 'cunning plan' for the underframe and running gear!

I was worried that this build might be impossible, but so far I'm reasonably pleased.
Last edited by drmditch on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:10 am

Watching the GN conversion with interest.....
Bachmann A2 to A2/3: from my thread in Model Railways page 56 to 83, also

Hornby A3 to A1/1 Great Northern: from page 84, in resin from page 108.


Apologies for so many missing images - see page 1 for reasons & possible solution.

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Re: Make do and Mend - meanwhile - back in the NE Area

Post by earlswood nob » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:19 am

Good morning all

I'm also following the GN cattle with interest.

Some time ago, I built a couple of Parkside cattle and measured them together with GNR/GCR versions in Tatlow.

I was wondering about the possibility of conversions, and now you're trying it "for me".

Nothing good about this morning, though, problems on M23/M25 hvae led to local roads being full of traffic.

Earlswood nob

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