Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Programme)

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Kings Cross
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Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Programme)

Post by Kings Cross » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:14 am

I am working on a 1/76 modell of the Finsbury Park Station as it was in the 1930's (before the demolition of the Station Road Facade because of the New Works Programme). As i studied architecture, am a perfectionist and by choosing this station in this period and living abroad i am aiming high.

So far i found some reference black & white photo's from the London Transport Museum for Station Road and i have of course the book of the Great Northern (part I) by Peter J Coster. The problem is that this station wasn't much photgraphed in those days as far i as i understand.

I have been looking for (architectural) drawings, plans, lay out plans, photo's to help me recreate the station (Station Road facade, platform buildings, etc) in this period. So far i wasn't able to find any plans, drawings with our friends at the NRM, Science Museum, Network Rail and Islington Gov. I hope to be able to go to the National Archives in Kew in 2014 to research what they have.

As the most knowledge of the GNR / LNER is to be found on this platform i wanted to ask you if anyone could assist me in finding the following or any information about the station architecture and it's lay out in the 1930's period?

1) Photo's, maps, drawings, plans of the 1930's architecture & lay out of the station (including the platform achitecture)?
2) An idea of how the platform buildings were used (location of restauration rooms, ladies waiting rooms, toilets, offices, etc.)
3) As is studied the station plans from the book of Peter J Coster and i look at the platform buildings now on former 1930 platform numbers 3&4 (Northside platform building) and 5&6 it seems that the plans do not correspond with the size of the plaform buildings as they are now. Have these buildings been partly demolished post war?
4) The station name sign is to be seen on photo's in the late 1940's and during the 50's as a small sign "Finsbury Park" on a small concrete base. Has that always been the case of is this a replacement of earlier wooden station name signs?
5) The colour of the english bond brick work of the station facade on Station Road in the 1930 photo's i would expect to have been the same colour of brick as used on the still remaining station platform buildings. Can anyone confirm this?

Any assistance in my research will be much appreciated.
Dirk

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by The Green Engine » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:12 pm

Hi Dirk,

I have been working on a similar project, and have some information which may help, but as you say it is not easy.

Please PM me if you would like what help I can give you and it would be great to compare notes:

Try this book which has a good high level track plan for the period that you are looking at:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Railway- ... lway+atlas

Also you may find the following of interest which can be searched for through google the first one is Finsbury Park No6 box plan which was produced to show what he effect of the new works programme would be an the others are Finsbury Park No 3 from a but later (1957):

I will also try and find you some other pictures. I think the signs that you refer to are lamps, but I am not sure of what age they date from.

You can also find some other signal box plans for no 7 if you search.

I am finding that I will need to simplify the trackplan to allow for available space, but it should be possible to get the overall feel and sense. I will be looking at six running lines and 7 platform faces.

I don't think that the brick colours will have changed much over the years but certainly some of the platforms have been removed.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fi ... ndex.shtml

Good luck
Attachments
Finsbury Park No6.jpg
Finsbury Park 3 1957.gif

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by The Green Engine » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:05 am

This is also a picture I had not seen before...http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5543/finsburypk65.jpg

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manna
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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by manna » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:21 am

G'Day Gents

Interesting projects, spent many hours spotting at Finsbury Park, on the station and at the spotting lookout, over looking the Edgware/Ally Pally branch, but in the early 60's.

Finsbury Park is a 'BIG' station, 10 platform face's, carriage sidings, goods yards, should keep you going for the rest of your lives, all the best to you :D

manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by StevieG » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:24 am

Hopefully you are both aware that the GN's final expansion of the Down side, with the addition of platforms 9 & 10 and at least one more running line (ending up as evidenced in the 1957 diagram of No.3 Box), was done before the Great War, and so the ten platform faces serving seven tracks plus the only platform-less line, on the west side (the Down Goods) were already in place by the 1930s.

Platform-served lines were :
1 - Up Branch (sometimes known as Up Edgware I believe)
2 & 3 - Up Slow
4 - Up Fast
5- Down Fast
6 & 7 - Down Slow No.1
8 & 9 - Down Slow No.2
10 - Down Canonbury

(Although rationalised in the 1970s with only 3 to 8 retained, renumbered 1 to 6, ironically the reinstatement last month of the old 1 / 2 island for passenger use has brought about re-renumbering, to 1 to 8.)
BZOH

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by The Green Engine » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:50 am

Thanks Manna, Stevie,

In my case, the eternal questions of time and space will dictate a much simplified track plan to end with an overall look and feel.

I will be working on

Down Slow2
Platforms 4 & 5
Down Slow 1
Platforms 2&3
Down Fast
Up Fast
Platform 1
Up Slow

Hopefully left with space to incorporate some sidings as well. As I have the space, there may be trams and the Piccadilly Line or Northern and City line in end to end form as well.

I will post my draft track plan when I get a second and I would really appreciate any comments or tips.

Thanks all

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by Kings Cross » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:06 am

Thank you all for your comments uptill now.

I am working on a lay out that will incorporate platforms (1930 platform numbering):1 Broad Street Services, 2 & 3 Up Slow, 4 & 5 Up & Down Mains and platform 6 (Down Slow). I do not have more space with the return loops and all. Further i want to include the trams on Seven Sisters Road, the bus stop at station road and part of the underground service. Either the Picadilly Line or the Great Northern and City (Northern Line from 1935).

Sorry if you got PM's i meant to reply in this toppic. It's been long ago that i was active on this platform but i'm getting the hang of it by now. :wink:
Dirk

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by Kings Cross » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:34 am

The Green Engine wrote:Thanks Manna, Stevie,

In my case, the eternal questions of time and space will dictate a much simplified track plan to end with an overall look and feel.

I will be working on

Down Slow2
Platforms 4 & 5
Down Slow 1
Platforms 2&3
Down Fast
Up Fast
Platform 1
Up Slow

Hopefully left with space to incorporate some sidings as well. As I have the space, there may be trams and the Piccadilly Line or Northern and City line in end to end form as well.

I will post my draft track plan when I get a second and I would really appreciate any comments or tips.

Thanks all
Hi Green Engine,

If you need assistance on tram route numbers (uptill 1938) for Seven Sisters Road or busroute numbers in the 1930s for Station Road, Wells Terrace, Stroud Green Road, Seven Sisters Road, Rock Street, etc. I have researched this including where to find photo's of the real thing in my private LT "library" and can share the information with you. Just let me know.

At the moment i am working on a 1/76 drawing of the Station facade at Station Road from the material i acquired thusfar. I came across some interpretation faults so have to start over.
Dirk

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by Kings Cross » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:41 am

I found this map of Finsbury Park Station Road + platforms 1-4 on an art gallery site for sale. See http://www.travellingartgallery.com/lan ... /S656.html for the real item.
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GNR plan of Finsbury Park.jpg
See http://www.travellingartgallery.com/landscape/print/merchdetail/S656.html for the real item
Dirk

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by StevieG » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:03 pm

Kings Cross wrote:Thank you all for your comments uptill now.

I am working on a lay out that will incorporate platforms (1930 platform numbering):1 Broad Street Services, 2 & 3 Up Slow, 4 & 5 Up & Down Mains and platform 6 (Down Slow). I do not have more space with the return loops and all. Further i want to include the trams on Seven Sisters Road, the bus stop at station road and part of the underground service. Either the Picadilly Line or the Great Northern and City (Northern Line from 1935).

Sorry if you got PM's i meant to reply in this toppic. It's been long ago that i was active on this platform but i'm getting the hang of it by now. :wink:
In that case Kings Cross, I will put my PM reply here instead, starting with your PM; hope that's okay with you :
Kings Cross wrote:Thans for your comment Stevie.
I understood this from the book of Peter J Coster. Although he mentions platform 1 as for the Up Broad Street Services and 10 for the down branch services. But it amounts to the same i believe. You can also see this on his ornance survey which is clearly before the New Works Programme (So pre war) as the buildings/shops on Station Street and part of St Thomas Road are still in place. Late 1930's these were demolished because of the New Works Programme.

_________________
Dirk
Broadly it can amount to the same thing, though in the mid-1960s, and I believe unchanged for at least four decades, platform 1 could only be accessed by trains from the 'Northern Heights' branches, the Up Carriage Sidings (UCS), and the two Up Goods lines from the Harringay direction, so you will understand that Up Broad Street (BS) passenger trains in that platform could only originate from the Edgware/High Barnet/Alex.Palace directions or the UCS. So trains (if any) for BS from the main or Hertford line suburban stations could only use plats.2/3, but No.4 Box (Up lines, S.end of station) had all the pointwork and signalling needed to send trains from 1 or 2/3 to anywhere.

The post-expansion layouts on the Down side, at both ends of the station, gave the ability for switching trains from almost any line to almost any other line (except for the Down Fast, where there was no ability to turn trains from it to other lines anywhere in between Holloway South Down and Harringay West Station signal boxes).
I am no good on historical train service information before the 1960s, but Down BS services certainly could, and maybe did, tend to use plat.10, and if terminating at FP that would be very logical. But as the No.3 Box diagram shows, they could also be signalled into 8/9 or 6/7 : In DMU days my memories are that they were often run via 8/9 in order to effect a Cross-platform passenger connection with another peak-time suburban train in 6/7.
If any (non-Down Fast) train was then continuing northwards, the only routeing which the trackwork did not provide for was from plats.6/7 to the Down Goods.
BZOH

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by Kings Cross » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:56 pm

StevieG wrote: Broadly it can amount to the same thing, though in the mid-1960s, and I believe unchanged for at least four decades, platform 1 could only be accessed by trains from the 'Northern Heights' branches, the Up Carriage Sidings (UCS), and the two Up Goods lines from the Harringay direction, so you will understand that Up Broad Street (BS) passenger trains in that platform could only originate from the Edgware/High Barnet/Alex.Palace directions or the UCS. So trains (if any) for BS from the main or Hertford line suburban stations could only use plats.2/3, but No.4 Box (Up lines, S.end of station) had all the pointwork and signalling needed to send trains from 1 or 2/3 to anywhere.

The post-expansion layouts on the Down side, at both ends of the station, gave the ability for switching trains from almost any line to almost any other line (except for the Down Fast, where there was no ability to turn trains from it to other lines anywhere in between Holloway South Down and Harringay West Station signal boxes).
I am no good on historical train service information before the 1960s, but Down BS services certainly could, and maybe did, tend to use plat.10, and if terminating at FP that would be very logical. But as the No.3 Box diagram shows, they could also be signalled into 8/9 or 6/7 : In DMU days my memories are that they were often run via 8/9 in order to effect a Cross-platform passenger connection with another peak-time suburban train in 6/7.
If any (non-Down Fast) train was then continuing northwards, the only routeing which the trackwork did not provide for was from plats.6/7 to the Down Goods.
Hello Stevie G,

Thank you very much for your clarification on this.

Do you or any one else perhaps know if No 4 Box diagram is to be found anywhere? Uptill now i haven't succeeded in tracking this down. I want to include No 3 & 4 box on my layout and no 4 box diagram would help to understand which pointwork and signalling was managed from this particular box.
Dirk

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by Kings Cross » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:00 pm

P.s. Happy New Year everybody!
Dirk

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by swhite01 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:25 am

I have a GNR layout plan No 3 for the route KX to Hatfield. It covers Finsbury Park from Ashburton Sidings to the High Barnet branch flyover. The plan is undated but the copy I have has been annotated with sale of parcels of land in the area, the latest noted as 1907.

I have taken a number of pictures from the plan but they are too large to upload with this message. I have added a set to my Flickr site that includes the 6 images - http://www.flickr.com/photos/8336963@N0 ... 305057063/

I hope they are of use to you.

Steve

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by The Green Engine » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:55 pm

Steve,

That's a gold mine of info. Thank you so much. Cheers. Matt

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Re: Finsbury Park Station - 1930's (before New Works Program

Post by StevieG » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:32 pm

The Green Engine wrote:Steve,

That's a gold mine of info. Thank you so much. Cheers. Matt
I can only agree with Matt, Steve. What a wonderful source of detailed info.! (E.g. despite being there for two years, I never did discover the 'bridge' number of the, by then little-evident, old milk subway; yet there it is!)

Matt,
Just a note to ensure what you'll probably already be aware of, that that plan of Steve's supply pre-dates the Down side expansion of platforms and lines which, by the 1930s was about twenty years old (e.g., no evidence of the platforms 9/10 island).
BZOH

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