King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

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Tim Watson
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard ramp line

Post by Tim Watson »

I am beginning to look at the ramp line behind Goods & Mineral SB, which has just been made. Further along, there had been an entrance to the Blundell St stables in the area to the north of Belle Isle and the coal yard may also have been horse shunted. I wonder if those bridge tracks were boarded - I suspect they might have been over the wrought iron bridges to allow horses an easy transit. Any thoughts? We have many photos of the SB and that part of the ramp but at a much later, post-horse date and after track removal.

More details of building works in the CF thread.

Tim
Mickey
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard ramp line

Post by Mickey »

Tim Watson wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:45 pm We have many photos of the SB
Personally I haven't seen that many photos of Goods And Mineral Junction s/box down the years possibly because it doesn't appeared to have been photographed in it's own right to often by ordinary railway photographers the reason being probably because where it was situated in Kings Cross Goods yard standing in front of a mass of track & points work for the ordinary railway photographer to access. The very few photographs that I have seen that feature the box the box is usually seen in the background to a train passing through Belle Isle and not of the box it's self. The box was always bit of a 'mystery box' around the London area between Kings Cross & Wood Green (along with Finsbury Park No.1 & Finsbury Park No.7) with it being a fairly tall large and imposing structure that was clearly seen by passengers on trains passing through Belle Isle but nothing much was really known about it?.
Last edited by Mickey on Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by Tim Watson »

I’ve sent you a PM, Mickey.

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StevieG
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard ramp line

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:22 pm
Tim Watson wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:45 pm We have many photos of the SB
" .... but apart from a hand drawn track layout of the box circa 1967 that can be found on line and one or two people's memories who visited the box nothing else is available. .... "
Surely you must have seen the one or two occasions when Owen Stratford ('PWay Owen')&/or LNERGE1 have posted a photo of the box's diagram from before Top Shed closed, so there was only 1 Spare lever of the 100 (No.64).
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Mickey
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard ramp line

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:52 am
Mickey wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:22 pm
Tim Watson wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:45 pm We have many photos of the SB
" .... but apart from a hand drawn track layout of the box circa 1967 that can be found on line and one or two people's memories who visited the box nothing else is available. .... "
Surely you must have seen the one or two occasions when Owen Stratford ('PWay Owen')&/or LNERGE1 have posted a photo of the box's diagram from before Top Shed closed, so there was only 1 Spare lever of the 100 (No.64).
I have seen a photograph on the forum of what possibly is a interior shot of Goods And Mineral but I don't think it clearly stated that it was?. Personally I haven't seen hardly any photographs of Goods And Mineral over the last 50+ years although I saw it hundreds of times in real life between 1967-1975.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by StevieG »

Mickey,
See the thread : - "the caledonian goods yard in the 1950s" : -
StevieG wrote: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:03 pm " .... I hope R.Pike doesn't mind my posting here, his following links posted in the Forum of http://www.signalbox.org, to his signal box diagram images relevant to G&M and FAB : -

Goods & Mineral Juction .. https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/15982109249/
Five Arch Bridge .. https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@ ... otostream/ "
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Mickey
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:08 am Mickey,
See the thread : - "the caledonian goods yard in the 1950s" : -
Thanks Stevie, I was always interested in Goods And Mineral Junction and I wouldn't have minded being a resident signalman at the box.

One Saturday dinner time when I was still a secondman at Kings Cross loco I remember being on a loco and sitting in the Goods yard probably after working something into the Goods yard earlier this must have been around July or August of 1975 a couple of months before the box closed for good and it was a sunny day and I think our loco was sitting behind a signal either on the no.3-no.8 Arch sidings roads or the Engine Departure line(?) and the box wasn't that far away from the loco and the box door was open at the top of the long staircase and it looked inviting and it momentarily crossed my mind to maybe get off the loco and nip up the box for a quick look in but I didn't bother and shortly after that the signalman pulled off for out engine to depart the Goods yard so maybe it was better that I didn't go up the box after all. Just an aside the signalman (or a signalman?) caught my eye because I recall seeing a bloke walking towards the box and then climbing up the long box staircase (if he was a signalman he may have been taking over from the early turn man because the time was around 12:30-12:45pm) and entering the open box doorway before disappearing inside the box anyway from vague memory he was a bloke of small to medium size who may have been in his 30s with slightly longish hair over his collar, funny the little things that stay in your mind.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:35 pm
StevieG wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:08 am Mickey,
See the thread : - "the caledonian goods yard in the 1950s" : -
" Thanks Stevie, I was always interested in Goods And Mineral Junction and I wouldn't have minded being a resident signalman at the box.

One Saturday dinner time when I was still a secondman at Kings Cross loco I remember being on a loco and sitting in the Goods yard probably after working something into the Goods yard earlier this must have been around July or August of 1975 a couple of months before the box closed for good and it was a sunny day and I think our loco was sitting behind a signal either on the no.3-no.8 Arch sidings roads or the Engine Departure line(?) .... "
The Down and Up Engine lines (but not 76 disc, 77 points and that route to "New Reception") disappeared after Top Shed closed, as did 'the Lickey' line (the un-named one down to Copenhagen Jn. that's got 28 signal reading back off it over 30 points) and the six signals (on the two big brackets) that took you on to it.
So you were probably at smaller bracket 94/95 (98 was normally left pulled 'Off' for shunting) : I don't think you'd have seen much of the box if stood at No. 100 disc.
Last edited by StevieG on Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:44 pm
Mickey wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:35 pm
StevieG wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:08 am Mickey,
See the thread : - "the caledonian goods yard in the 1950s" : -
" Thanks Stevie, I was always interested in Goods And Mineral Junction and I wouldn't have minded being a resident signalman at the box.

One Saturday dinner time when I was still a secondman at Kings Cross loco I remember being on a loco and sitting in the Goods yard probably after working something into the Goods yard earlier this must have been around July or August of 1975 a couple of months before the box closed for good and it was a sunny day and I think our loco was sitting behind a signal either on the no.3-no.8 Arch sidings roads or the Engine Departure line(?) .... "
The Down and Up Engine lines (but not 76 disc, 77 points and that route to "New Reception"disappeared after Top Shed closed, as did 'the Lickey' line (the un-named one down to Copenhagen Jn. that's got 28 signal reading back off it over 30 points) and the 6 signals (on the 2 big brackets) that took you on to it.
So you were probably at smaller bracket 94/95 (98 was normally left pulled 'Off' for shunting : I don't think you'd have seen much of the box if stood at No. 100 disc.
I was going by John's hand drawn track layout dated 1967 Stevie. The loco was standing possibly on the roads that you mention but I vaguely recall the loco was standing to the left of the Arrival & Departure roads but I don't know the name of the road that we were on but I could see the box and box staircase and doorway quite clearly from the loco. I remember thinking when I was looking at the box that it only had a short time left to go before closure and I presume the new Kings Cross Terminal Junction panel box was possibly already built or nearly built and that would have been to the far right of the standing loco.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:26 am
StevieG wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:44 pm The Down and Up Engine lines (but not 76 disc, 77 points and that route to "New Reception" disappeared after Top Shed closed, as did 'the Lickey' line (the un-named one down to Copenhagen Jn. that's got 28 signal reading back off it over 30 points) and the 6 signals (on the 2 big brackets) that took you on to it.
So you were probably at smaller bracket 94/95 (98 was normally left pulled 'Off' for shunting : I don't think you'd have seen much of the box if stood at No. 100 disc.
I was going by John's hand drawn track layout dated 1967 Stevie. The loco was standing possibly on the roads that you mention but I vaguely recall the loco was standing to the left of the Arrival & Departure roads but I don't know the name of the road that we were on but I could see the box and box staircase and doorway quite clearly from the loco. I remember thinking when I was looking at the box that it only had a short time left to go before closure and I presume the new Kings Cross Terminal Junction panel box was possibly already built or nearly built and that would have been to the far right of the standing loco.
I'm a bit sceptical of that version of the layout still holding good as late as 1967 Mickey.

I know of no reason why the Engine Lines would have been kept usable for all that long after Top Shed's 1963 closure, and they'd certainly been lifted by 1968 when I first visited.
John's diagram also includes 'the Lickey' line connection (G&M No. 30 points) down to Copenhagen box, used mainly by LEs from Top Shed going to KX station .
Cop. J. box closed in Dec. 1967 and I've seen a diagram for the box with only straight DF and DS left, so 'the Lickey' had gone before that.

In my opinion, in 1974/5-ish you'd have been waiting at 94/95 bracket signal, which was of course, to the left of Coal Departure road.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:09 pm I'm a bit sceptical of that version of the layout still holding good as late as 1967 Mickey.

I know of no reason why the Engine Lines would have been kept usable for all that long after Top Shed's 1963 closure, and they'd certainly been lifted by 1968 when I first visited.
John's diagram also includes 'the Lickey' line connection (G&M No. 30 points) down to Copenhagen box, used mainly by LEs from Top Shed going to KX station .
Cop. J. box closed in Dec. 1967 and I've seen a diagram for the box with only straight DF and DS left, so 'the Lickey' had gone before that.

In my opinion, in 1974/5-ish you'd have been waiting at 94/95 bracket signal, which was of course, to the left of Coal Departure road.
From my vague memory of what occurred 46 years ago Stevie was where the loco was standing the staircase and doorway to the box was clearly seen I am fairly certain about that. Wasn't a few roads still in place to the left of the Coal departure road during 1974-75?. I think I recall the loco wasn't to far away from that bracket signal with the full size arm and the miniature arm and also that signal on the straight post with a notice board fixed to the post as well. As previously posted I remember the day was a sunny Saturday and it was around 12:30-12:45pm during either July or August of 1975 and the loco was standing to the left of Goods Departure road and I am fairly certain the loco didn't came down from Five Arch it was on a road further to the left.
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thesignalman
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by thesignalman »

Good day, Mickey and Stevie G

The 1967 plan on my web site was based on a S&T "locking sketch" which was rubber-stamped 1967 so I should imagine these were the arrangements immediately prior to the abolition of Copenhagen Junction.

Here is a diagram more for Mickey and my era, dated c1972. This may help with the head-scratching.
goodsmineralc1972.jpg
(I won't be putting this on my web site as generally I try and only show one plan for each location there)

Best regards,

John
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by StevieG »

thesignalman wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:31 am " Good day, Mickey and Stevie G

The 1967 plan on my web site was based on a S&T "locking sketch" which was rubber-stamped 1967 so I should imagine these were the arrangements immediately prior to the abolition of Copenhagen Junction.

Here is a diagram more for Mickey and my era, dated c1972. This may help with the head-scratching. .... "
That's a good one John; thanks for sharing.

My last visit to G & M was before the layout started being reduced for the route's modernisation.
I suppose everything as seen in RPike's diagram photo could have been left alone after Top Shed's closure, including the Engine Lines, until the abolitions in connection with Copenhagen Jn.'s closure : My first visit was a few months after that, c1968, when 30, 52, & 96 points, and all signals associated with them, had been abolished (involving 15 levers in total), but the rest was all still working, making the 'statistics' W.84, S.16 / T.100.

Your diagram posted herein is interesting, apparently showing preparatory abolitions for the running of future new Slow Lines through the Goods lines' bore of Copenhagen Tunnel then descending to Gasworks Tunnel : Eastern Route has mostly gone, along with 'Cemetery' sidings and Nos. 1 & 2 Goods Arrivals.
Interesting that former No.15 Distant had been made Fixed - perhaps easier than altering the locking for it to be workable for the one remaining Home signal (54) of the four that it used to be clearable for.

The NL Incline had been TC'd by the time of my last visits, along with provision of 96 ground position-light at the top.
But it looks like the No.70 disc for, and selected by, 77 points, on the same lever as 70 Goods Departure Home, was a late addition for some reason, as I never saw that one.
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Re: King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

Post by Mickey »

Yeah thanks for posting the 1972 track layout John. I reckon our loco came from one of the roads that was applicable to passing no.98 signal.

I notice the full size arms that were below no.68 both no.44 or no.45 have been removed in the 1972 layout due to the routes in advance of those signals being abolished. I just noticed that the bracket post that stood to the right of no.68 signal which when I remember seeing it had x4 miniature arms on it had been abolished in the 1972 track layout again obviously due to track alterations.

I always liked Goods And Mineral it looked like a very interesting box to work even in it's later years of the first half of the 1970s although by then I presume the signalman wouldn't exactly be rushed off his feet with long periods of time when it was very quiet during the day and night.
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