Wood Green Tunnel box

[hq1hitchin]

Someone has asked me which signal box controlled the turnout from the Down Goods beyond Wood Green 3 and the Khyber Pass onto the Down Slow line. I always thought it to be Wood Green Tunnel box but someone else reckons it was Park Gate Sidings, which I've never heard of as a signal box? I know there was a siding north of Wood Green somewhere on the down side but am a bit confused now. Can any other GN man assist, please?

[Mickey]

Someone has asked me which signal box controlled the turnout from the Down Goods beyond Wood Green 3 and the Khyber Pass onto the Down Slow line. I always thought it to be Wood Green Tunnel box but someone else reckons it was Park Gate Sidings, which I've never heard of as a signal box? I know there was a siding north of Wood Green somewhere on the down side but am a bit confused now. Can any other GN man assist, please?

I'm with you hq1hitchin it was Wood Green Tunnel Down box situated beside Down slow line on the approach to Wood Green tunnel between Wood Green no.3 & New Southgate s/boxes.

Harry Fitzgerald who finished his days at Welwyn Garden City box during the 1960s & 1970s told me once back in the early 1970s that he had been at the box as a regular signalman sometime during the 1950s and before that he had been regular at Wood Green no.1.

I don't know on what date the box closed but i have seen a photograph of it after closure and boarded up with those flat roofed blocks of flats standing behind it taken probably sometime in the early 1960s?.

Park Gate Sidings never heard of it either?. Maybe he was getting mixed up with Palace Gates??.

[R. pike]

[R. pike]

A super picture here..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp ... 34/sizes/l

I have the DOWN BOX nameboard but not the WOOD GREEN TUNNEL bit..

[Mickey]

I believe i recall seeing a 1930s photograph published in the L.N.E.R. Album that features Wood Green Tunnel box showing New Southgate's Down fast line semaphore distant signal (a somersault arm) being positioned immediately outside Wood Green tunnel and it may have also have been fitted with a white sighting board behind the signal arm as well?.

In B.R. days during the mid/late 1960s until February 1973 New Southgate's Down fast line distant signal was a x2 aspect colour light signal positioned on the approach to Wood Green tunnel also during the sametime period the Down slow line semaphore distant signal for New Southgate was positioned at the north end of the tunnel about 20 yards outside of the tunnel mouth on a small/medium concrete post.

[StevieG]

I believe i recall seeing a 1930s photograph published in the L.N.E.R. Album that features Wood Green Tunnel box showing New Southgate's Down fast line semaphore distant signal (a somersault arm) being positioned immediately outside Wood Green tunnel and it may have also have been fitted with a white sighting board behind the signal arm as well?.

In B.R. days during the mid/late 1960s until February 1973 New Southgate's Down fast line distant signal was a x2 aspect colour light signal positioned on the approach to Wood Green tunnel also during the sametime period the Down slow line semaphore distant signal for New Southgate was positioned at the north end of the tunnel about 20 yards outside of the tunnel mouth on a small/medium concrete post.

In the late '60s, the New Southgate box diagram quoted the Down Slow Distant as 740 YARDS FROM BOX, so with the then later 3-doll bracket Down Homes being 123 YARDS FROM BOX, that gave only 617 yards' braking distance (but this was on the rising 1 in 200 to Potters Bar).
I mention this as the only diagrams I've seen with the DF Distant as a semaphore, show it as also being at the north end of the tunnel; I think on a gallows-type structure, like Oakleigh Park's DS Distant was until the end. And a certain anecdotal story told by a retired signalman who was at NS in the late '50s/early '60s only 'works' if the DF Distant was still there at the north end in those times (not much braking distance though! - Even though the DF Homes were then a 2-doll bracket, but in roughly the same place as the later 3-doll structure).

[Mickey]

I believe i recall seeing a 1930s photograph published in the L.N.E.R. Album that features Wood Green Tunnel box showing New Southgate's Down fast line semaphore distant signal (a somersault arm) being positioned immediately outside Wood Green tunnel and it may have also have been fitted with a white sighting board behind the signal arm as well?.

In B.R. days during the mid/late 1960s until February 1973 New Southgate's Down fast line distant signal was a x2 aspect colour light signal positioned on the approach to Wood Green tunnel also during the sametime period the Down slow line semaphore distant signal for New Southgate was positioned at the north end of the tunnel about 20 yards outside of the tunnel mouth on a small/medium concrete post.

In the late '60s, the New Southgate box diagram quoted the Down Slow Distant as 740 YARDS FROM BOX, so with the then later 3-doll bracket Down Homes being 123 YARDS FROM BOX, that gave only 617 yards' braking distance (but this was on the rising 1 in 200 to Potters Bar).
I mention this as the only diagrams I've seen with the DF Distant as a semaphore, show it as also being at the north end of the tunnel; I think on a gallows-type structure, like Oakleigh Park's DS Distant was until the end. And a certain anecdotal story told by a retired signalman who was at NS in the late '50s/early '60s only 'works' if the DF Distant was still there at the north end in those times (not much braking distance though! - Even though the DF Homes were then a 2-doll bracket, but in roughly the same place as the later 3-doll structure).

I could well have imagined recall seeing New Southgate's Down fast line semaphore distant signal at the immediate entrance to the southern end of Wood Green tunnel Stevie or i was possibly getting it mixed up with another location??.

Only 617 yards between the Down fast line distant signal and it's home signal for a fast line even on a rising gradient at 1 in 200 seems fairly short'ish although possibly sufficient breaking distance for a Stirling 7ft & 8ft single but for a Gresley A3 or A4??. Plus the distant signal being situated outside of the north end tunnel mouth possibly made it difficult to be seen by the driver of either a left or right side driven loco with smoke blowing down along the boiler?.

[StevieG]

Someone has asked me which signal box controlled the turnout from the Down Goods beyond Wood Green 3 and the Khyber Pass onto the Down Slow line. I always thought it to be Wood Green Tunnel box but someone else reckons it was Park Gate Sidings, which I've never heard of as a signal box? I know there was a siding north of Wood Green somewhere on the down side but am a bit confused now. Can any other GN man assist, please?

I'm with you hq1hitchin it was Wood Green Tunnel Down box situated beside Down slow line on the approach to Wood Green tunnel between Wood Green no.3 & New Southgate s/boxes.

Harry Fitzgerald who finished his days at Welwyn Garden City box during the 1960s & 1970s told me once back in the early 1970s that he had been at the box as a regular signalman sometime during the 1950s and before that he had been regular at Wood Green no.1.

I don't know on what date the box closed but i have seen a photograph of it after closure and boarded up with those flat roofed blocks of flats standing behind it taken probably sometime in the early 1960s?.

Park Gate Sidings never heard of it either?. Maybe he was getting mixed up with Palace Gates??.

Same here, hq1 and Micky : Don't think I've ever heard of a Park Gate Sidings, anywhere, never mind near Wood Green.
'Tunnel box' (as the lads used to call it) it certainly was : Telegraph code TK and featured certainly on the YF-HT circuit (not sure about others off the top of my head). Closed sometime in 1961-1964 I think (can't recall more accurately at the moment).

I'm thinking that the box may have closed when it did because of bankslip.
Seeing how strongly the cutting side beside the present Alexandra Palace ( ) station's Platform 4 (Down Hertford line) has been restrained by relatively-modern, thick corrugated pile-driven sheeting, and that this had been done before my memories going back to 1967, when it was Wood Green ( )'s platform 6 on Down Slow No.2, 'Tunnel Box' might have closed owing to a bankslip here beside the station blocking the DG (& the parallel DS2?), and 'they' decided it wasn't worth restoring it sufficiently to clear and re-open the adjacent Down Goods.
As there was no DS2 - DG crossover at Wood Green No.3, the leaving of the DG to terminate at the south end of the station (controlled by No.1 box) as it latterly did would've meant that the 'Khyber Pass' Down Goods (it ran in a single track cutting between non-railway land and the Down Hertford line's 'ramp' up to its flyover across the main lines) to Tunnel box became inaccessible to trains, and so perhaps Tunnel box's main function disappeared (the sidings were probably little used or thought expendable, and with a DS - DF crossover existing at New Southgate, loss of the same facility at 'Tunnel' would've probably been viewed as bearable).

P.S. Another nice to diagram to see - Thanks again R.Pike.

[Mickey]

Stevie. What in your opinion was the purpose of no.16 ground signal?.

Was it just to run it through the detector slides on no.12 points instead of running the signal wires from signals nos.14, 18 & 20 through the slides?.

[sandwhich]

If I remember right this box was gas powered only and looked quite dismal at night in the seemingly isolated spot where it then was, as regards the Khyber Pass I only remember going around there twice before closure both times light engine. It was one of those places where sidings and signal boxes were in abundance and over a period of many years of rationalisation gradually disappeared.

[Mickey]

I suppose they filled the old Khyber pass in although it was still there minus the track in the early 1970s.

[StevieG]

Stevie. What in your opinion was the purpose of no.16 ground signal?.

Was it just to run it through the detector slides on no.12 points instead of running the signal wires from signals nos.14, 18 & 20 through the slides?.

That's all I can make of it as well Micky; seems to serve no other purpose.

On the other hand, the way it's shown (and that, for a train off the DG, you'd think 16 ought to precede, and release, 14), that would leave 15 to be pulled between 14 & 16 already Reversed, which is a situation that is supposed to be avoided in Frame layout/locking design.
So, noting that there's no disc showing for setback into the sidings, and analysing all the numbering, I wonder if 16's been drawn the wrong way round, and is actually for a setback through either 17 or 19 - that would fit in very nicely to usual frame layout numbering, and avoid any need to pull a lever between its already-Reversed immediate neighbour on both sides.

[Mickey]

Stevie. What in your opinion was the purpose of no.16 ground signal?.

Was it just to run it through the detector slides on no.12 points instead of running the signal wires from signals nos.14, 18 & 20 through the slides?.

That's all I can make of it as well Micky; seems to serve no other purpose.

On the other hand, the way it's shown (and that, for a train off the DG, you'd think 16 ought to precede, and release, 14), that would leave 15 to be pulled between 14 & 16 already Reversed, which is a situation that is supposed to be avoided in Frame layout/locking design.
So, noting that there's no disc showing for setback into the sidings, and analysing he numbering, I wonder if 16's been drawn the wrong way round, and is actually for a setback through either 17 or 19 - that would fit in very nicely, and avoid any need to pull a lever between its already-Reversed immediate neighbour on both sides.

Excellent analysis as usual Stevie. Yes that would be a bit messy or confusing pulling off no.14 Down Goods line home signal first then no.16 ground signal and then no.15 Down Goods line distant signal?.

Also i take it no.13 is a Clearance bar as opposed to a FPL just by the way it's drawn slightly longer on the diagram?.

And it appears there was a gate crossing the exit road out of siding no.2 thats shown on the diagram.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

I can remember Wood Green Tunnel box, but we never got to close, as we were already on railway land when we were spotting alongside the Kyber Pass, to us, it was just another box !

I can also remember the C/S (No 1 siding, just) but not No 2 sidings, so that's a new one

The 'Land slip' alongside platform 6 had not happened, pre June 1964 (When I came to Oz) but was there when I returned in Oct 70.

Also, I've never heard of 'Park Gate siding's, and I've shunted all over that area.

manna

[JASd17]

I am at present digitising some old spotting books from the 1930s.

The spotter, Frank Giles, described the location around Wood Green Tunnel Box as 'Park Siding'. Not Park Gate Sidings.

I wonder if this was a contemporary enthusiasts name for the area, which gave a good view of traffic on the main line? I am sure it is not a 'railway' appellation.

John