New Barnet North box

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey,
Yes, Barnet South had quite an array of semaphores, especially the gantry with those down home signals ( down fast, down fast/slow, down slow, down goods/down slow, and down goods ). I think they may have looked a bit like those at Wood Green No 1 ( WO ) ? That T bracket signal post for Barnet South's up slow starter also carried the Oakleigh Park up slow inner distant, with the up slow outer distant further back at the platform end under Barnet South's up slow home. When I was at the North box some signalmen on duty at Oakleigh Park didn't always use that up slow outer distant ( can't remember who that was !! ). ....but we could see it looking along up platform. I think you're right about the empty space on the right hand side of that T bracket signal.....probably was an up fast starter in the past. Incidentally, going back to the down signals at Barnet South....the down slow distant was mounted under Oakleigh Park's down slow starter ( No 7 ) ,which I imagine would in itself be quite a pull from Barnet South. When South box was closed the operation of this signal was taken over by the North box ( No 12, showing 'down slow outer distant ) , this would I'm sure be really heavy to say the least ! ( this only happened on Sunday's so I never got chance to try it myself ) . Those down sidings at Barnet South were often used for stabling coal empties ( from the up side gasworks at BN ) awaiting to be returned northwards. Occasionally the sidings were used for stabling condemned mainline stock awaiting disposal. These were often from the Gresley/Thompson era. I think on a couple of occasions we might have 'borrowed' a few cushions for our armchair in the box ! You're right about the number of those sidings on the up side at Oakleigh Park ( I've got a picture I'll have to count up ) In the late 50's early 60's these sidings were used as a storage/distribution centre for Vauxhall vehicles going for export. Most days a train would arrive from Luton ( via Welwyn Garden City ) usually in 16t open wagons, with large wooden crates of CKD vehicles . They were unloaded by crane an transported onward to London docks by road. I have a photo I took of an N2 arriving with one of those trains, probably in the late fifties. After this traffic ended you're quite right, the sidings were used to bring in the concrete segments needed for the construction of the Victoria line. They must have been taken forward by road to whichever site they were required.

Eddie

[Mickey]

When I was at the North box some signalmen on duty at Oakleigh Park didn't always use that up slow outer distant ( can't remember who that was !! ). ....but we could see it looking along up platform.

Yes Eddie i don't believe i really remember seeing that Oakleigh Park Up slow line outter distant signal (beneath New Barnet South Box Up slow line home signal just off the south end of New Barnet station) showing a 'clear' to often especially for class 2 local passenger trains that stopped in New Barnet Up slow line platform?. If you happened to be sitting up front in a Cravens or Rolls Royce DMU set you would see the road ahead if the driver had the cab blinds rolled up?.

...going back to the down signals at Barnet South....the down slow distant was mounted under Oakleigh Park's down slow starter ( No 7 ) ,which I imagine would in itself be quite a pull from Barnet South. When South box was closed the operation of this signal was taken over by the North box ( No 12, showing 'down slow outer distant ) , this would I'm sure be really heavy to say the least ! ( this only happened on Sunday's so I never got chance to try it myself ).

Yes i have a memory of being on New Barnet station one sunny Saturday afternoon back in the summer of 1970 and the station was deserted with nobody around like most of the stations usually were back in those days and walking along the Down platform and standing at the south end of the station platforms and looking southwards at New Barnet South Box which was 'switched out' that afternoon because all the South Box running line signals on the Up & Down lines were 'pulled off' (and stayed off) and there wasn't any movement to be seen in the box either anyway occasionally i would hear the signal wires being pulled through there runners along the cess side by the New Barnet North Box signalman and i would see the Down fast line (inner) distant signal on the South Box gantry come off to a 'clear' and maybe also the outter distant signal back at Oakleigh Park as well(?) and then several minutes later a Deltic or a Brush type 4 on a Down express would round the bend in the distance at Oakleigh Park and approach New Barnet station at speed and roar passed me and through the station!!.

Yes great days indeed...

Those down sidings at Barnet South were often used for stabling coal empties ( from the up side gasworks at BN ) awaiting to be returned northwards. Occasionally the sidings were used for stabling condemned mainline stock awaiting disposal. These were often from the Gresley/Thompson era.

I have a vague feeling that i remember seeing some main line ECS in the Down sidings maybe BRMk1s?.

I think on a couple of occasions we might have 'borrowed' a few cushions for our armchair in the box!

Many boxes around the country managed to accuire(?) cushions somehow from old coaches, ha ha ha...

You're right about the number of those sidings on the up side at Oakleigh Park ( I've got a picture I'll have to count up ) In the late 50's early 60's these sidings were used as a storage/distribution centre for Vauxhall vehicles going for export. Most days a train would arrive from Luton ( via Welwyn Garden City ) usually in 16t open wagons, with large wooden crates of CKD vehicles . They were unloaded by crane an transported onward to London docks by road. I have a photo I took of an N2 arriving with one of those trains, probably in the late fifties. After this traffic ended you're quite right, the sidings were used to bring in the concrete segments needed for the construction of the Victoria line. They must have been taken forward by road to whichever site they were required.

Thanks Eddie for confirming my recollections of seeing those concrete tunnel segment rings in the Up sidings at Oakleigh Park circa 1968-69.


Mickey

[StevieG]

Oakleigh Park Up Goods Distant (No.24 IIRC) was parallel alongside Barnet South's Up Slow Starter (with OP Inner Distant), but actually stood outside the Up yard's Spur.
Yes, the 'T'-bracket did once have an UF Starter with OP Distant : I've seen a B&W Photomatic or Lens photo showing it when all the signals were somersaults.
In the late '60s I think there was usually only one 'block-ender stabled at 'Barnet' overnight, and that was the one that was left in the Local Siding (alongside the station between the US and UG). the morning routine with this set was that its loco arrived light, (early enough to steam-heat the set if necessary), by running down to the North, crossing back to the US. then setting back onto its train at South box : So far so good.
But then, to get the train to the US platform at the right time, a 'Block Back Outside' was put on with North, and it was given South 46 dolly to come out onto the US through 45 points to stand behind No.44 dolly, but then, [whereas a move back along the UG from South to North Box was properly provided for, using South UG 50 dolly released from North], because US 44 dolly could only be cleared into the Local Siding, all that then happened was 45 points were put back to normal, and the bobby waved an arm or lever cloth/duster to the guard from an open window, upon which 'signal' the train was called to set back over two facing sets of undetected points, unsignalled.
(But on one occasion, so I'm told, a reliefman (name withheld) inexplicably gave the 'signal' for the train to set back before normalising 45s, then realising the error, tried to quickly put the points back just in time (there was no track circuit). Unfortunately it was just too late, and one coach went 'both ways', demolishing the old US Homes bracket, which is why by the late '60s, that signal was the only one around there of more modern Late LNER or BR type instead of GN lattice.)
I have very early (young) memories of two occasions of evening locals terminating in the DS platform; I think, one hauled by a Brush/Sulzer (later class 24), and the other a D53xx, and I think one or both were setback into the Down Sidings 1 or 2 via the former DS slip (No.6 points) at South across the DG and into said sidings.

Re the Down passenger lines' Distant arrangements at South/North, the DS signals remained mechanical, as described by Eddie, to the end.
But by 1967, South's Down Fast Distant (21) at Oakleigh Park, and North's Inner Distant (22) under South's Home, had both become motor-operated, with BS21 also controlled by BN22 [with both, in turn, governing OP's colour-light Distant (at Cemetery) changing from YY to Green]. So lever 21 at North which, like lever 12 for the DS, once was used to take over South's DF mechanical Distant when South was switched out, was by then a spare lever.
This change in the DF Distant signal/s arrangements may well have been done with the Greenwood-Potters Bar quadrupling and resignalling from Barnet, but I don't know if that really was the case, or took place at some separate time.

[Mickey]

...demolishing the old US Homes bracket, which is why by the late '60s, that signal was the only one around there of more modern Late LNER or BR type instead of GN lattice.)[/i]

Yes that bracket signal post that carried the New Barnet South Box Up slow line home signal(s) just off the south end of the Up slow line platform (which read along the Up slow line or Up slow to Up fast line) did look slighty more modern looking than the rest of the signal posts at the South Box with the two posts which carried the signal arms being of the tubular metal type and from memory the bottom part of the signal post was similar looking to the Down slow line inner home signals nos.4 & 9 found at Welwyn Garden City i thought(?) with the rest of the signal posts at New Barnet South Box being either of the lattice type which included the Up Goods line home signal(s) that was of a lattice bracket post design the Up slow line starting signal on the lattice T bracket post and the Up fast line colour light home signal at the south end of the Up fast line platform which was mounted on a lattice type of over hanging signal post arrangement. The signal gantry on the Down lines (which read Down fast line or Down fast to Down slow line or Down slow line or Down Goods line) was from memory part lattice (the lower part of the gantry that spanned the running lines) but the actual signal posts which carried the signal arms were of the tubular metal type from memory?.

Re the Down passenger lines' Distant arrangements at South/North, the DS signals remained mechanical, as described by Eddie, to the end.
But by 1967, South's Down Fast Distant (21) at Oakleigh Park, and North's Inner Distant (22) under South's Home, had both become motor-operated, with BS21 also controlled by BN22 [with both, in turn, governing OP's colour-light Distant (at Cemetery) changing from YY to Green]. So lever 21 at North which, like lever 12 for the DS, once was used to take over South's DF mechanical Distant when South was switched out, was by then a spare lever.

I must have imagined that i heard the signal wire being pulled through the pullys cess side inconjunction with the Down fast line inner distant signal 'coming off' on the South Box gantry Stevie but i do remember the arm coming off though and i thought it would have some effect on Oakleigh Park's Down fast line colour light distant signal (south end of Oakleigh Park or Barnet tunnel) putting a green in it as well even with both Oakleigh Park & New Barnet South Box being closed.


Also Stevie with reference to the working-arrangement in regards to New Barnet North Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal (on the South Box gantry) from 1967 onwards that kind of information would have been lost to time without you recording it.

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey/StevieG,
Yes, that set stabled overnight was usually a 2 x quad-art. In the early 60's we had two terminating down trains in evening peak service. Train No.1942 was the 17.01 ex KX arriving at 17.27 .....this was always a five coach set, early BR Mk 1's ? with no corridor, bench seats from side to side ( just like the quad-arts ) . The guards brake was always in the middle of the set. This first terminator was always set back from the down slow to the up 'shed side' ( officially up siding No.1 ). The loco would be uncoupled and run up into the 'spur' ( next to the North 'box) , then sent up to the South 'box via the up goods to 'run round' . I guess the ECS was sent back to Finsbury Park carriage sidings ? The second down terminating train was No.1950, the 17.17 ex KX arriving at 17.44. This was the set you referred to, which was kept overnight in the 'up local' siding. The loco of this train was used to move a van fit of Royal Mail from the parcels dock on the down side to the up side. This engine and van was kept in the up spur, before the van was attached to the rear of an up DMU passenger train, ( via No.40 points up spur to up slow ) , heading for KX. Good to be reminded of the morning peak shunting move from the up local to up slow......still can hear that bell code 3-3 !! ...not a very easy move in bad weather or fog !...where would we nave been without that trusty BR lever duster ! Re the Barnet North down fast distant(s)...... I'm sure this arrangement was set up at the time of the Greenwood - Potters Bar widening as No.22 was already motor worked when I started at BN in 1962 ( as was the Barnet South down fast distant ).

Eddie

[Mickey]

This first terminator was always set back from the down slow to the up 'shed side' ( officially up siding No.1 ). The loco would be uncoupled and run up into the 'spur' ( next to the North 'box) , then sent up to the South 'box via the up goods to 'run round' . I guess the ECS was sent back to Finsbury Park carriage sidings ? The second down terminating train was No.1950, the 17.17 ex KX arriving at 17.44. This was the set you referred to, which was kept overnight in the 'up local' siding. The loco of this train was used to move a van fit of Royal Mail from the parcels dock on the down side to the up side. This engine and van was kept in the up spur, before the van was attached to the rear of an up DMU passenger train, ( via No.40 points up spur to up slow ) , heading for KX. Good to be reminded of the morning peak shunting move from the up local to up slow......still can hear that bell code 3-3 !! ...not a very easy move in bad weather or fog !.

Thats when railways were still railways Eddie, at Welwyn Garden City all Down trains that terminated at the station were crossed over from the Down side to the Up side all the time prior to the 'Welwyn flyover' opening in 1974.

...where would we nave been without that trusty BR lever duster!.

Cecil White at Welwyn Garden City always use to use a 'lever cloth' all the time so did a geordie bloke called Bill Taylor a relief-signalman who sometimes worked the box.

Re the Barnet North down fast distant(s)...... I'm sure this arrangement was set up at the time of the Greenwood - Potters Bar widening as No.22 was already motor worked when I started at BN in 1962 ( as was the Barnet South down fast distant ).

The New Barnet North Box Down fast line distant signal (carried on the South Box gantry) i assume apart from saving the signalman 'a bit of a pull' to clear the signal to the off it was never the less a fairly 'straight pull' from the box to the gantry/weight bar although possibly a slightly shorter distance than Hitchin Yard's Down fast line distant signal back at Hitchin South's Down fast line inner home signal(s) on the bracket post and that distant signal i don't think was ever motorised?. .

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey,
Did you ever get a chance to see the train describers in the North 'box ? They were put in with the widening scheme between Barnet and Potters Bar. The bell code was entered in ( separate screen for down slow and down fast ) and when the train passed beyond BN's down slow or down fast starter's ( I think !), this track circuit would cause a horn to sound in the Potters Bar panel and the train would appear on their first track circuit. The same would happen in reverse on up side, and we could see up trains soon as soon as they had passed Potters Bar. The describers only took bell codes not the train reporting numbers ! Any idea what happened to them ?

Eddie

[Mickey]

Did you ever get a chance to see the train describers in the North 'box ? They were put in with the widening scheme between Barnet and Potters Bar. The bell code was entered in ( separate screen for down slow and down fast ) and when the train passed beyond BN's down slow or down fast starter's ( I think !), this track circuit would cause a horn to sound in the Potters Bar panel and the train would appear on their first track circuit. The same would happen in reverse on up side, and we could see up trains soon as soon as they had passed Potters Bar. The describers only took bell codes not the train reporting numbers ! Any idea what happened to them?

I never did get into the New Barnet North Box Eddie although i did get into Potters Bar (box) on 3 separate occasions during the summer of 1973.

With reference to Train Describers our current Train Describers that we have on the North London lines (since about 1995) work basically the same way when a train 'comes in' from another box area a audible alarm sounds for about 2 seconds and then the first TC shows occupied on the panel.

When they commissioned the NX panel in Welwyn Garden City (box) in mid September 1973 they didn't provide any Train Describers back then the train descriptions (southwards) to & from Hatfield (No.2 box) and later on with New Barnet North Box and (northwards) to & from Langley Junction (box) were sent & received on the single stroke block bell via 4 separate buttons in the NX panel front face of the panel if those s/boxes were still around these days they would have TDs & Emergency Alarms with the s/boxes either side along with TRUST and the GSM-R satellite phone, we still have the SPTs & points phones (in the panel) but since having the GSM-R satellite phone introduced in about 2012 most conmunicating with driver's these days is done via that phone rather than the SPT at the signal.

As for what happened to those TDs in New Barnet North Box i couldn't tell you that Eddie but either Stevie, John 'the signalman' or RP would probably know what happened to them i'd say.

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey,
Shame you missed out on a visit to Barnet North, was a great 'box which in my time was kept absolutely spotlessly clean. Like I said earlier Saturday was always the day for cleaning, especially on early turn. The levers were cleaned using good old metal polish and wire wool and then buffed up to a shine. Anyone touching them without using the lever cloth would be in big trouble !! The frame was then cleaned using a tin of black lead ( can you still get that now? ) and then polished. Lastly, the whole floor was then scrubbed down......by the time that was all done I think it was nearly time for home !! Thanks for the info on the latest set-up you operate with today...I' still trying to work out all the terminology, there seems to be so much more technology needed today. It must have been very difficult operating when the old 'boxes were being gradually closed and the operating methods between those that were left being constantly changed ? Do you have any recollection of Hornsey No 2 ( up ) 'box. I did visit there once, probably '66 or '67 , because a t/lad I started with at BN was there. All I can remember is it was quite small, about a 20 lever frame maybe ? and was open on early and late shifts just like Oakleigh Park .

Eddie

[Mickey]

At Welwyn Garden City (box) Eddie when i was there and probably prior to my arrival in 1972 the floor was covered in (BR) Lino which was purposely not cleaned because one of the regular signalmen at the box Harry Fitzgerald didn't like working with a polished up floor.

Hornsey No.2 (box)?. No i never got in it although i did get into Hornsey No.1 (box) on the Down lines back in 1971 or 72. Yes Hornsey No.2 was a small box indeed and in fact it would have been a good 'starter box' for a telegraph lad who had just passed out as a signalman because it only signalled the Up fast & Up slow lines although there had been at onetime 2 connections one from the Up slow line leading into the Up Goods no.1 line and also a connection coming off of the Up Goods no.1 line leading into the Up slow line although those 2 connections were 'slotted' with Hornsey Up Goods (box) but those 2 connections were both disconnected and abolished and the Up slow line was 'plain lined' on the immediate approach to Hornsey No.2 (box) by about the early 1960s.

I've got a complete S&T track diagram of Hornsey Up Goods (box) dated 1959 that shows that onetime connection.

By about 1969/70 i think Hornsey No.2 (box) may only have been a 'one shift box' opened mainly for the 'morning peak' services into Kings Cross, Moorgate & Broad Street between Monday-Friday, a west indian signalman who always appeared to wear a hat always seemed to be observed working the box from passing trains during that era and the box it's self usually appeared to be 'switched out' from about 2:pm onwards in the afternoons. Dave Cockle who use to be a regular signalman at Wood Green Up Box No.4 in the early 1970s and who comes on the forum every few weeks can say for certain what the hours Hornsey No.2 (box) was usually open in the early 1970s.

There was an interesting accident that happened between Wood Green Up Box No.4 & Hornsey No.2 (box) back in 1899 the Official Accident Report can be found on the Railway Archive website.


Mickey

[StevieG]

'Barnet North' Down Distants Mickey : IIRC, The 1960 S.A. listed South and North boxes as 396 yards apart : So when (apparently until the Greenwood-Potters B. quadrupling) the North's DF Distant (22) was still mechanical, we can expect that it wouldn't have been a hard pull.
The DS Distant (13) was probably a bit harder, because although it was, like 22, only about 470 yards away, you were pulling the slot for the Distant under South's No.18 DF-DS Home as well as under his DS Home, and a few years earlier, before the points were abolished, it would've been harder still as you'd have then been also pulling a third slot, for the Distant under South's No.13 Down Goods - DS Home.

With you on the interior condition of North box Eddie!

Re the STC (Standard Telephones & Cables) Train Describer system between 'Barnet North' and Potters Bar, given that the new PB box only ever had Block bells northwards to Marshmoor by which to signal trains, I've never thought of any then-current operating reason for the BN / PB section to need specially equipping with Describers for normal signalling communication instead of 'normal' Block bells.
Instead, because, AFAIK, BR's use of cathode ray tubes for describer displays was virtually unknown around 1958, I've always thought that use of the Describers for this one section was probably a trial of this form of describer display [each berth's green display was actually a pair of circular tubes about 1 to 1 1/4" in diameter, with each tube capable of showing two characters].
And that for this one approx. 4-mile section, it would've been fairly pointless for the describers to show trains' reporting numbers, necessitating the signalmen to, at one end, on receiving the usual 'Is Line Clear?' bell-codes, having to look up/double check each train's reporting number in order to put that number into a describer for going forward with the train, only for the 'bobby' at the other end to have to convert the received and displayed reporting number back to a bell-code for onward offering transmission.
Incidentally Eddie, IIRC, Re the 'Barnet North' Down descriptions, once setup and interposed ready for the trains to take them forward : You may recall that, on both roads, the track circuiting from clear (advance) of No.20 DS-DF points, to the Starting signals, was actually divided part-way along, forming two TCs : I think the description was actually transmitted to PB when the train reached the second-half of that track-circuiting, provided that the relevant Starter ahead (15, DS : 24, DF) was already 'Off'.

Hornsey No.2 : Spot-on with the frame size Eddie; it was 20 (6 Spares).
Hornsey 2 was one of those boxes which Norman Greenwood knew : Only once, probably in about '68, did he tell me he was going to be there at a day/time when I could make it, so I was lucky to see it.
I too think that by then, it was usually only open for a.m. 'peaks'. At that time the two crossovers connecting between the Up Slow and Up Goods No.1 were still in and workable : Although both Hornsey 2 and Up Goods boxes had slots on the relevant Home signals that read across those connections, the UG1-US points (and the points from UG2:- the points in UG1 were a double slip), were bolted by H2 and pulled by HUG : But the US-UG1 crossover was worked the other way round : HUG had the bolt and H2 did the pulling.

[Dave Cockle]

Micky,

I have a train register book from Wood Green No 4 for 07 Dec 72 to 05 Jan 73 , which fell in the period that I was a regular signalman there. I have just had a look in the train register and can see that Hornsey No 2 signal box was open from 07:00 to 15:00 Mon - Fri. I remember the West Indian signalman you mentioned who was always wearing a trilby hat. I think his first name was Tony.

[Mickey]

'Barnet North' Down Distants Mickey : IIRC, The 1960 S.A. listed South and North boxes as 396 yards apart : So when (apparently until the Greenwood-Potters B. quadrupling) the North's DF Distant (22) was still mechanical, we can expect that it wouldn't have been a hard pull.
The DS Distant (13) was probably a bit harder, because although it was, like 22, only about 470 yards away, you were pulling the slot for the Distant under South's No.18 DF-DS Home as well as under his DS Home, and a few years earlier, before the points were abolished, it would've been harder still as you'd have then been also pulling a third slot, for the Distant under South's No.13 Down Goods - DS Home.

Yes noted Stevie thanks.

From memory at New Barnet South Box the Down fast to Down slow line 'turn in' use to be positioned south of the box but was repositioned north of the box (the existing connection) but clipped & scotched out-of-use pending the autumn 1970 resignalling. Also i remember the Down Goods line signals and connections being abolished between Oakleigh Park-New Barnet South Box & New Barnet North Box i think it was around December 1969 or January 1970?.

Mickey

[Mickey]

I have a train register book from Wood Green No 4 for 07 Dec 72 to 05 Jan 73 , which fell in the period that I was a regular signalman there. I have just had a look in the train register and can see that Hornsey No 2 signal box was open from 07:00 to 15:00 Mon - Fri. I remember the West Indian signalman you mentioned who was always wearing a trilby hat. I think his first name was Tony.

Thanks Dave good to have a name to that signalman at Hornsey No.2 cos i can still see him in my minds eye over 40 years later i think he was regular at the box right up until closure in June/July of 1973.

Another minor detail i always remember about Hornsey No.2 from that same era 1970-73 was the box clock on the back wall over the book the front glass was always left wide open i always noticed that from a passing train on the Down lines.

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Yes Mickey, we were the same at BN as Harry Fitzgerald was at Welwyn Garden City ( CT ), certainly no polish on that standard BR lino, just the weekly wash and dry ! Also thanks Mickey and StevieG for the feedback on Hornsey No.2, I didn't think anybody would know much about such a small 'box !! Another question.......Mickey, StevieG or Dave....does anyone remember a signalman at Hornsey No.2 in the mid sixties ( or a bit later ) by the name of Larry Haag (I think that's how his surname was spelt ) . He started as t/lad at BN about the same time as me and at the time I think lived in the Tottenham area. Back to those down distants at Barnet North and Barnet South....I got down my Barnet North 'box diagram, thinking it might show the distances from the box....no such luck I'm afraid, but the down goods to down slow connection at Barnet South is shown, together with arrows to the three slots worked by Barnet North's No.13 down slow distant(s). Interestingly the diagram also notes that Barnet South's down fast distant is a "REPEATER" to Barnet North's down fast distant No.22 ! Also Stevie, you're dead right about those split TC's on the down slow and down fast at BN beyond No.20 points...I' never noticed that before. On the block shelf in Barnet North, on the right-hand side of the TD's ( Potters Bar end ) where I guess the block bells to Greenwood would have been, there were two modern ( for those days ) telephone units connected to all the new signals on the shown on the new diagram. These units came complete with a display screen so you knew which signal was calling you up ! In between these 'new' bits of kit had been left some pretty old ( GNR/LNER ) vintage wooden block bells, to be used in case of TD failure !
Mickey, where the 'new' down fast to down slow turn in at Barnet South was re-positioned to is exactly where the old down slow to up slow crossover was in the 'old days' ( taken out I think about 1963 )

Eddie