New Barnet North box

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Mickey

New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

A nice picture of New Barnet North box taken in 1976 on a misty day by the looks of it and not to long before it closed.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3813329 TQ2696

Oakleigh Park & New Barnet South s/boxes closed around the autumn of 1970 when local colour light signalling was commissioned in the immediate area controlled from New Barnet North box after the removal of the lever frame and the installation of a temporary switch-panel had been installed. The area of colour light signalling was initially quite small between Oakleigh Park station through New Barnet station towards Greenwood (Hadley Wood south tunnel) linking up with Potters Bar panel s/box to the north under TCB working and Cemetery s/box to the south which was (still) Absolute block working this arrangement lasted until February 1973 when both Cemetery & New Southgate s/boxes were closed and TCB working was extended further south to Wood Green Up box No.2 on the Up lines and Wood Green No.1 on the Down lines this extention of TCB working further south to Wood Green necessitated in the commissioning of a new and longer NX panel in New Barnet North box and the abolition of the 1970 switch-panel.

Mickey a onetime telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box.
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet North box

Post by StevieG »

FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... until February 1973 when both Cemetery & New Southgate s/boxes were closed and TCB working was extended further south to Wood Green Up box No.2 on the Up lines and Wood Green No.1 on the Down lines this extention of TCB working further south to Wood Green necessitated in the commissioning of a new and longer NX panel in New Barnet North box and the abolition of the 1970 switch-panel.

Mickey a onetime telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box. "
That first switch panel, being of Individual Function Switch type, was quite a compact affair, having only about 29 switches in two rows.
The second panel was longer, as you say, not only because of the additional area taken on to the south which you mention, but in part also because it was, as you also say, one of the eNtrance / eXit variety, and so naturally needed to be longer anyway.
But the biggest part of its extra length was necessitated by it being designed to additionally take on the then recently resignalled area of Potters Bar and on (Up lines only) to approximately Marshmoor; which duly happened either later that year (1973) or '74, when the similar replacement panel in Potters Bar box was relegated to satellite emergency-use status only - probably the first to which this happened (always their intended final purpose once King's Cross Power Signal Box had taken over each local interlocking area). But Potters Bar was, I think, the only one of these panels that, rather than being relocated to its 'Relay (interlocking) Room' building almost immediately, was then instead retained in place on the upper operating floor of its signal box for a few years (where it had taken the place of the original 1954/5 NX panel console and upper track/indications diagram), but it too ended up in its Relay Room when the operating room top floor of the '50s structure was removed.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:That first switch panel, being of Individual Function Switch type, was quite a compact affair, having only about 29 switches in two rows.
The second panel was longer, as you say, not only because of the additional area taken on to the south which you mention, but in part also because it was, as you also say, one of the eNtrance / eXit variety, and so naturally needed to be longer anyway.
But the biggest part of its extra length was necessitated by it being designed to additionally take on the then recently resignalled area of Potters Bar and on (Up lines only) to approximately Marshmoor; which duly happened either later that year (1973) or '74, when the similar replacement panel in Potters Bar box was relegated to satellite emergency-use status only
You could see that New Barnet North box NX panel (especially at night) being longer and illuminated with the routes and the tracks (circuits) lit up from a passing train especially on the Down slow line as you pulled away from the Down slow line platform.

With reference to how the commissioning at New Barnet progressed later on it's alittle bit hazy nowadays but i believe it went something like this-

Potters Bar NX panel closed sometime in the second half of 1973 and the New Barnet North box area of control was extended northwards and linked up with Hatfield No.2 NX panel, the area of control i presume was beyond Potters Bar station on the Down lines towards Hawkshead and on the Up lines i presume New Barnet North box 'picked up' trains in the Redhall area but thats a guess on my part?.

Hatfield No.2 NX panel closed in April 1974 and the New Barnet NX panel then linked up with the Welwyn Garden City NX panel. When i was on the verge of leaving Welwyn Garden City box in March 1974 there was pre-pararatory work taking place at Welwyn Garden City box with the impending closure of the Hatfield No.2 NX panel in April 1974 then being in progress. From 'vague memory' the new area of control south of Welwyn Garden City was obviously shown on the Welwyn Garden City NX panel (but wasn't commissioned at that point in time) i think Down trains first came on Welwyn Garden City's panel on both the Down fast & Down slow lines around the Marshmoor/Redhall area?. On the Up lines Welwyn Garden City's last track circuits on the NX panel were on the Up fast & Up slow lines just south of Hatfield in the area where Hatfield No.1s Up fast & Up slow lines starting signals on the bracket post signal use to be.

One day John Saggers a regular signalman at New Barnet North box and a NUR (National Union of Railwaymen) rep showed up in early 1974 at Welwyn Garden City box to talk to Cecil White a regular signalman at WGC and a LDC (Local Departmental Committee) rep and amongst several things mentioned in there conversation was John telling Cecil that the S/N telegraph instruments in New Barnet North box were being abolished fairly soon and that he (John) would like to keep them, i remember hearing that.

Mickey a onetime telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box.
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet North box (Resignal'g N.Southgate-Woolmer Gn.

Post by StevieG »

I'd think you're broadly correct Mickey.
Regarding the Hatfield area, I don't know if the panel at WGC was initially able to show the indications of that area while it was still being operated from Hatfield 2 Box, but no doubt it would have been technically possible (and I've a slight feeling that the same may have happened at 'Barnet' for the Potters Bar area). Then it would've been when Hatfield panel, like PB, was relegated to emergency use, that WGC actually took control of the Hatfield area.
Later still, WGC panel reached its full extent of control when its north end came into use with the resignalling's abolition of Woolmer Green and Knebworth boxes, and Track Circuit Block working with Langley box came in.

As to the telegraph instruments at 'Barnet North', the four of them (there was no concentrator there) sat on top of the cupboard/lockers at the back (east side) of the box. When the second panel was put in, it also went somewhere along that side, probably to make its installation easier because the first panel and its accompanying side desks were on the west side, where the lever frame had been. So although I don't clearly recall, access to the telegraphs may thus have been made difficult.

While the telegraphs were working when the first panel arrived in 1970, I am very doubtful that the circuits were still operational 2-3 years later when the second panel arrived, though the instruments may well have still been sitting there, unused.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box (Resignal'g N.Southgate-Woolmer Gn.

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:Regarding the Hatfield area, I don't know if the panel at WGC was initially able to show the indications of that area while it was still being operated from Hatfield 2 Box, but no doubt it would have been technically possible (and I've a slight feeling that the same may have happened at 'Barnet' for the Potters Bar area). Then it would've been when Hatfield panel, like PB, was relegated to emergency use, that WGC actually took control of the Hatfield area.
I think the track circuits were illuminated on the WGC NX panel Stevie when Hatfield No.2 was still in use although it all seems along time ago now to be 100% certain, when i left WGC in March 1974 Hatfield No.2 was still operational but only just, Dave Vince was still there although i believe he went to Hornsey Up Goods for a couple of years when Hatfield No.2 finally closed.
StevieG wrote:Later still, WGC panel reached its full extent of control when its north end came into use with the resignalling's abolition of Woolmer Green and Knebworth boxes, and Track Circuit Block working with Langley box came in.
Yes i was still at WGC for the first 6 months after the NX panel had been commissioned and obviously i recall WGC working with Langley Junction. The funny thing about the method of working back then as opposed to these days was WGC back then didn't have any TDs Train Describers unlike s/boxes today for example on the North London lines every box has a TD installed even at a box like Dudding Hill that has about 8-10 trains per 12hrs shift back in 1973/74 on the WGC NX panel there was only x4 in-built buttons in the front of the NX panel each one was connected to a single stroke block bell.

WGC NX panel left to right Button no.1 Up/Down slow lines to & from Langley Junction. Button no.2 Up/Down fast lines to & from Langley Junction. Button no.3 Up/Down fast lines to & from New Barnet. Button no.4 Up/Down slow lines to & from New Barnet.

And that was it no Train Describers so you had to keep the booking up to date!!.
StevieG wrote:As to the telegraph instruments at 'Barnet North', the four of them (there was no concentrator there) sat on top of the cupboard/lockers at the back (east side) of the box. When the second panel was put in, it also went somewhere along that side, probably to make its installation easier because the first panel and its accompanying side desks were on the west side, where the lever frame had been. So although I don't clearly recall, access to the telegraphs may thus have been made difficult.
x4 individual s/n telegraph instruments Stevie that must have taken up a fair bit of room?.

By the way i suppose it was obvious after saying that the 1973 long NX panel in New Barnet North box could be seen illuminated especially at night from a passing train on the Down slow line thats because it faced eastwards towards the Up slow line.
StevieG wrote: While the telegraphs were working when the first panel arrived in 1970, I am very doubtful that the circuits were still operational 2-3 years later when the second panel arrived, though the instruments may well have still been sitting there, unused.
Could well be Stevie because you knew the inside of the box, i took it when John Saggers said to Cecil he wanted to keep the tele-instruments that they were still in use and thinking again what John said i thought he wanted to keep the s/n tele-instruments for finding out train movements but it was all along time ago now to say what he really meant?.


Mickey a onetime telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box between July 1972-March 1974
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet North box

Post by StevieG »

FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " A nice picture of New Barnet North box taken in 1976 on a misty day by the looks of it and not to long before it closed.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3813329 TQ2696 .... "

Mickey a onetime telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box.
Here's an alternative view ....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/89966691@ ... ed-public/
[ I always thought how quaint it was that one of the poles of the Down side pole route (telegraph wires) here sat on a little left-hand extension of the signal gantry.]
FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote:
StevieG wrote: " .... As to the telegraph instruments at 'Barnet North', the four of them (there was no concentrator there) sat on top of the cupboard/lockers at the back (east side) of the box. .... "
" .... x4 individual s/n telegraph instruments Stevie that must have taken up a fair bit of room?. .... "

Mickey a onetime telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box between July 1972-March 1974
Exhibit A : -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/89966691@ ... ed-public/
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

I'll check out exhibit A later Stevie cos i'm currently using a N.R. pc and they've got restrictions on flickr pictures which is a nuisance to say the least.

Yes i do vaguely remember that cut down telegraph pole fixed to the signal gantry now that you mention it, talking of which i use to like that overhanging signal gantry at the north end of the Down slow line platform although it was spoilt somewhat when the x2 left-hand arms (out of the original x4 arms) were removed coming off the Down Goods line in either late 1969 or early in 1970?.

Another thing that i vaguely remember about New Barnet North box was the 'long crossover' just before it was abolished and the 4 roads were 'plain lined' in either late 1967 or in 1968?. The long crossing started in the Down slow line north of the box and crossed right across to the Up Goods line including having 'slips' in the diamonds off the Down fast line, the Up fast line and the Up slow line passing quite close to the north east corner of the box which is obviously why the box had a part of the north east corner shaved off at a angle if anybody recalls it?.

Another personal memory of New Barnet station is of doing a bit of 'spotting' on the station one hot and sunny Saturday afternoon back in August 1970, the station was quiet and deserted like most of the stations were back then anyway New Barnet South box was closed that afternoon and obviously all the South box signals were pulled off but every so often you would see the semaphore distant signal beneath the South box Down fast line home signal on the gantry be pulled off by the North box then a few minutes later a Deltic or a Brush type 4 would appear rounding the curve at Oakleigh Park on a fast approaching Down express before it thundered pass through New Barnet station!!.

Mickey
Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

While in the same vicinity and a stones throw from New Barnet North box was the old G.N.R. Goods shed on the Up side of the running lines.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3781235 TQ2695

From memory there was a nice white'ish painted lattice post bracket signal carrying x2 arms on the Up Goods line and worked by New Barnet South box that stood just beyond the south end of this Goods shed up to the autumn of 1970 when New Barnet South box & Oakleigh Park boxes were both abolished and New Barnet North box was converted to a Switch-Panel with multi-aspect colour light signalling replacing the previous mixture of mainly semaphore signals and several earlier colour light signals in the New Barnet & Oakleigh Park area.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3813249 TQ2695

A view from the Up fast line platform looking northwards towards New Barnet North box in 1976

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1121471 TQ2695

A x2 car Cravens arrives in the Down slow line platform also in 1976

Mickey
Last edited by Mickey on Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:15 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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R. pike
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Re: New Barnet North box

Post by R. pike »

The box nameboard is rather unusual. A much cherished part of my collection. I don't remember much about GN signalling but i do recall seeing the nameboard and it's odd shape.
Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

R. pike wrote:The box nameboard is rather unusual. A much cherished part of my collection. I don't remember much about GN signalling but i do recall seeing the nameboard and it's odd shape.
Nice to know one survived RP also i liked that B.R. paint job they done on the box the same colour scheme that New Barnet South box, Oakleigh Park, Cemetery & New Southgate boxes were painted in as well.

All in all New Barnet North box was one of the better looking G.N. s/boxes still around in the late 1960s & early 1970s.

Mickey
Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

This is for historical record.

If anyone has ever wondered where the first few hundred yards of OHL electrification work appeared on the GN suburban area in 1973 well this was the area i remember seeing it has it happened.

The exact stretch of railway where the first OHL masts were erected and were wired up was on the 4 track section just north of Oakleigh Park station and several hundred yards south of New Barnet station just in the area of where New Barnet South box once stood.

Mickey
Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

Yes it was getting a bit confusing on that other thread Stevie it WAS mirrored because EddieBN originally posted New Barnet North Box on both the General Discussion and LNER people pages. This is a thread about New Barnet North Box that i started several months ago.

Mickey
Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

The Down fast to Down slow line 'turn in' lead at New Barnet South Box was repositioned but clipped out-of-use until comissioning of the switch panel in New Barnet North Box from the south side of New Barnet South Box (the old lead) to the north side of the box (the new lead) prior to comissioning in the atumn of 1970.

That is the existing lead from the Down fast to Down slow line at New Barnet.

Mickey
EddieBN
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Re: New Barnet North box

Post by EddieBN »

Hi Mickey,
Someone recently mentioned the crossover at Barnet South . It was still there when I started in 1962 but I think was taken out soon after. It was very rarely used ( one or twice in three years ?), and this was only for a light engine movement which was crossed over from the down slow to up slow and then set back into the up local siding to draw the stock out (usually a 2 x quad art set) to make 1833 the 08.22 all stations to Broad Street. Normally this light engine would be crossed over at the North box. Re. the set-up of the up fast signals at Barnet South.....although the up fast home signal was always a colour light, Oakleigh Park's up fast distant (No 13) was still on a normal sized lever (not cut down) , and was a very heavy pull as it was slotted with the manual distant signal with Barnet South's up slow to up fast home signal. I've found a copy of "LNER General Appendix to the Rules and Regulations and Working Time Tables with Sectional Appendix for the Sourhern Area" dated 1st November 1947. There are a couple of entries for working at Oakleigh Park one of which is about those down sidings. It says " Down Sidings: The Down Sidings are worked by a ground frame, the key of which is kept in the Porters room, but when a Porter is not on duty the key must be kept in the signal box"

Eddie
Mickey

Re: New Barnet North box

Post by Mickey »

I remember New Barnet South Box Eddie thats the box it's self and some of the signalling and the layout from about late 1967 onwards through to the autumn of 1970 when the box was closed along with Oakleigh Park (box) as well.

At the South Box the box had quite a number of semaphore signals nearly until the end, that tall Up slow line starting signal with Oakleigh Park's Up slow line distant signal beneath it was mounted on the left-hand side of the T bracket signal post (quite near to the box actually) and was an all lattice post i vaguely remember which tended to 'lean slightly' towards the left i presume that T bracket at onetime also carried the Up fast line starter as well?.

Also Oakleigh Park's Up Goods Line distant signal on the tall concrete post was also quite near to the South Box virtually opposite the box i believe?.

Yes they use to out stabled a couple of 'block ender' sets (inner suburban non-corridor ECS) in the Up sidings at New Barnet at onetime and did they also stable a set or two in the Down sidings opposite the South Box as well in the late 1960s or was that after the South Box had closed in late 1970 and was during the 1970s or am i thinking that they did?.

The Up sidings at Oakleigh Park didn't they have about 8 roads and was a bit cramped (the area has housing built on it since the late 1970s or early 1980s?) anyway from very vague memory wasn't there a number of trains destined for the Victoria Underground line stabled in those Up sidings back in 1968-69 trains with huge concrete tunnel rings on there flat bogie bolster wagons plus also i vaguely remember one or two trains of carflats stabled in those sidings as well around the sametime 1968-69?.

Mickey
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