Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

[Mick Berg]

Hello gentlemen, I wonder if anyone can remember this.

Did the up trains from Ally Pally go down the ramp and into platform 9 or 10 at Finsbury Park, or did they go over the ECML and into Platform 1? And if so, how did they get back to Platform 10 to do the down journey again? I am getting conflicting information from my books. They were push-pulls so they didn't have to run around or anything. Also the crossover at the top of the ramp is the wrong way for up trains to get to the ramp, but I would just like to be sure.

I was lucky enough to travel this line quite often from 1952 to 1954 when I was a 5-7-year-old. Very grateful for that, such memories.

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

[Mickey]

Take alook at the bottom link Mick if you havn't already seen it?. It may not answer your question but it's quite interesting.

Mickey

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fi ... ndex.shtml

[manna]

G'day Gents

I think you'll find that these trains used platform 1, as an arrival, then travelled through East Goods yard and down the 'ramp' to Ashburton Grove/ Finsbury Pk No 1 (Cannonbury) where the driver could change ends, then travel back to Finsbury Park (platform 10) via Clarence Yard/Western Sidings........hope that's clear.

manna

PS, Lucky you to have travelled over the Ally Pally branch, I've only ever walked it, although, Cranley Gns was still there, but derelict.

manna

[Dave Cockle]

Just a small point the empty push pull train would actually travel via the Up Canonbury line which passed to the East of East Good Yard then reverse at Finsbury park No 1 signal box to come back on the Down side at Finsbury Park , usually platform ten. There was a route via East Goods Yard, then down a steep incline to Finsbury park No 1, but that was usually used only by freight trips.

The last regular use of platform ten at Finsbury Park, by passenger trains, after the Alexandra Palace trains were withdrawn was by "The Highwayman" in 1970. This was a cheap pre book train which ran from Finsbury Park to Newcastle via Sunderland and ran Class 2 (ordinary passenger train). The empty coaches for this train used to come out of Holloway Carriage Sidings and travel via the Low Level line when the train arrived at Finsbury park it was platformed in number ten so it could stand out of the way to allow plenty of time for boarding.

[Mickey]

Just a side observation on the Edgware branch at Finsbury Park 7 s/box where there was 2 roads heading from Finsbury Park 7 towards Finsbury Park 6 direction across the bridge over the main line north of Finsbury Park station, anyway according to 'the signalmans' drawing of the track diagram at Finsbury Park 7 it shows 2 roads one road was the Up Edgware line and a second road running parallel with the Up Edgware line was a 'carriage siding' road anyway my question is how far did this carriage siding road extend to was it all the way to Finsbury Park 6 box or did it end in a set of stops before reaching Finsbury Park 6?. That piece of railway was virtually impossible to see from a passing train.

Finsbury Park 6 use to have a tall straight lattice post x2 co-acting arms semaphore home signal (with Finsbury Park 4s semaphore distant(s) signal(s) beneath) coming off the Up Edgware branch and that signal always looked like it was half 'hidden in the trees' overlooking the park from a passing train on the main line.

Mickey

[Dave Cockle]

Mickey, there was an Up Carriage Line from Finsbury Park No 7 to No 6 box. ECS used to be propelled over this line then drawn forward back into Finsbury Park Carriage sidings. The up Carriage was also available for permissive working.

[Mick Berg]

Thanks guys.
I think your input plus the fact that there's no way to get from the up line to the ramp proves that the up trains used Platform 1 and the down trains Platform 10.
I know the disused stations site well, but it doesn't give that info. My best source is a great little book called 'Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace' by J.E. Connor, pub. Middleton Press.
Cheers,
Mick

[Mickey]

Mickey, there was an Up Carriage Line from Finsbury Park No 7 to No 6 box. ECS used to be propelled over this line then drawn forward back into Finsbury Park Carriage sidings. The up Carriage was also available for permissive working.

Thanks Dave that bit of railway was always a bit hard to workout with 'wot done wot' because it was virtually all hidden from the public.

So the Up carriage line that started at Finsbury Park 7 and ran parallel with the Up Edgware line as far as Finsbury Park 6 was i presume actually worked under 'no block regulations' with any trains being run between both boxes over that carriage line being 'sent on' over the telephone?. Or was there separate permissive block instruments in both boxes for running trains over the carriage line so any trains that were run were 'put on the block' on the permissive block instruments between both boxes?.

The Signalman's hand drawn diagram names it as a 'carriage siding' and not a carriage line thats why i wasn't totally sure if i ran all the way from Finsbury Park 7 to Finsbury Park 6 but the likelihood or it not doing so seemed very remote to be honest?.

I believe after the Edgware line was 'lifted' from Finsbury Park 5 to Finsbury Park 7 and From Finsbury Park 7 back up to Finsbury Park 6 circa 1971-72 didn't they put a set of stops halfway up the Up Edgware line on the Up side of the main running lines behind GB Up carriage sidings and it was turned into a extra siding at Finsbury Park 6?. I kinda have a vague memory of seeing a set of stops on that Up Edgware line?.

Mickey

[Dave Cockle]

Micky,

I spent four weeks up Finsbury Park No 6 in July 1969 gaining experience of signalling whilst waiting for a basic course in Telegraph and signalling at Kings Cross Signalling School. I had to play dumb as I had already been an unofficial signalman at several boxes on the Hertford Loop courtesy of several friendly relief signalmen. It was however my first opportunity to pick up single needle telegraph as this was not in use on the Hertford Loop.

I made a sketch of the box diagram and by this time the Up Carriage had been reduced to a siding accessible only from Finsbury Park platform one (Up Edgware Branch). The buffer stops were half way up the bank towards the Edgware Branch flyover.

Looking at some old photos interior photos of Finsbury park No 6 box it would seem that the Up Carriage Line had permissive block instruments i.e. Yellow background for Line Clear instead of the usual green background for an absolute block.

The former Up Carriage Line finished in a short spur between the Up Edgware Branch and Up Slow with the stops hard up against Stroud Green Road bridge. A light loco on the Up Carriage line could slip into the spur before setting back into Finsbury park CS but a set of coaches would have to run into platform one in order to clear the points before setting back.

[StevieG]

..... Rather than being instead of the green "Line Clear" section, weren't the yellow parts of the block instrument face, actually the "line Occupied" section, where the red "Train On Line" or "Train Entered Section" were on an Absolute block instrument, Dave?

That apart, I think all else that's been said about the Up Carriage line is correct. I do recall that by the time I saw No.7 box's area and diagram (also 1969), No.7 only had the trailing crossover left as points; the Carriage line from the Down line, back across the flyover already being out of use/lifted. But I do recall from first sight of No.6's diagram that he Up Carriage line signal there were still a main arm (to Plat.1) with lower miniature arm (to aforementioned Spur) [levers 1 & 2, I think?], yet between them, and the disc further south, at the points which led to the Up Branch line for moves into/through Plat.1, there was a trailing connection from the other sidings into 'the Carriage' that, unusually to my mind, was only handpoints, and I've never found any info. that it was ever worked from the box, despite being 'protected' by the Up Carriage Home.

[Mickey]

I made a sketch of the box diagram and by this time the Up Carriage had been reduced to a siding accessible only from Finsbury Park platform one (Up Edgware Branch). The buffer stops were half way up the bank towards the Edgware Branch flyover.

I thought i vaguely recall seeing a set of 'stops' half way up the hill opposite GB carriage sidings Dave.

Looking at some old photos interior photos of Finsbury park No 6 box it would seem that the Up Carriage Line had permissive block instruments i.e. Yellow background for Line Clear instead of the usual green background for an absolute block.

Ok Dave thanks for clarifying the working over the Up Carriage line' between Finsbury Park 7 & Finsbury Park 6 s/boxes.

Mickey

[Mickey]

I do recall that by the time I saw No.7 box's area and diagram (also 1969), No.7 only had the trailing crossover left as points; the Carriage line from the Down line, back across the flyover already being out of use/lifted.

Yes the same here Stevie i visited a redundant Finsbury Park 7 box with a railway friend very shortly after it's closure in October 1970 (the box door was left open as usual) this was maybe just a few weeks after closure and i remember being in the box pulling and putting back several of the redundant levers in the frame!.

Finsbury Park 7 was a bit of a mystery box being virtually hidden from public view from passing trains although if you was travelling on a slow train along the Down slow no.1 line after leaving Finsbury Park station and approaching Finsbury Park 5s Down slow no.1 line starting signal near to the Edgware branch overbrdge well just after passing under the overbridge if you happened to glance up you could just catch about a 1 second view of the box before the corner of that brick built building obscured the view of the box, sometimes you mite just see the outside light being left on above the doorway in the evening?.

Mickey

[sandwhich]

If memory serves me right the local ECS workings from the down side at Finsbury Park Station to No7 box to propel back to the back platform 1 ceased around 1970 when the bridge over the main lines was condemned on an inspection so all of these workings made there way to Ferme Park Down side for another loco to attach and take the train to Fins Park CS. At the same time the LU ECS workings to Highgate then went by the widened lines to Farringdon then onto the Underground. This bridge condemnation of course brought to an end the remnants of the Northern Heights connection.

[Mickey]

From memory if you walked along the footbridge across all running lines north of Finsbury Park station from Finsbury Park to the other side which brought you out in Woodstock Road you did actually get a good face on view of Finsbury Park 7 box i vaguely remember, i actually remember walking over that footbridge several times around 1964 or 1965?. I think once you entered upon the footbridge at the Woodstock Road side you could see Finsbury Park 7 box quite well face on then you actually went down some steps and passed under the covered way part or the footbridge obviously where the Edgware lines passed overhead before you came out into the open again and walked over all the running lines north of Finsbury Park station.

I have a vague memory of looking at Finsbury Park 7 box from the Woodstock Road open part of the footbridge path before you went down the steps and under the Edgware branch lines that must have been around 1964 or 65?.

Mickey

[StevieG]

If memory serves me right the local ECS workings from the down side at Finsbury Park Station to No7 box to propel back to the back platform 1 ceased around 1970 when the bridge over the main lines was condemned on an inspection so all of these workings made there way to Ferme Park Down side for another loco to attach and take the train to Fins Park CS. At the same time the LU ECS workings to Highgate then went by the widened lines to Farringdon then onto the Underground. This bridge condemnation of course brought to an end the remnants of the Northern Heights connection.

The LT underground stock ("1938") workings, with as always, a battery loco at each end, must have been judged as of lower axle weight than BR workings, because (though I can't offer reliable dates), I'm pretty sure that the local BR workings over the bridge had been stopped before I got to visiting the signal boxes in 1968/9, but the LT workings were allowed to continue until the bridge was prohibited to all movements (as you say, about 1970?).

The working of the LT trains between No.7 and Highgate had also become unusual : At some point, presumably post-final ending of the Alexandra Palace passenger services in '54, and the 1932 LNER multiple-aspect signalling between No.7 and Park Junction boxes having been mostly removed, No.7's Down line Starter signal was, by 1968, a permanent main red aspect, with a working position-light signal below, with which to allow trains onward towards Highgate, presumably under some form of 'No Block'/'Through Siding' type of working [I wonder if this came in after (or before?) the early-1960s cessation of freight workings to station yards like East Finchley, Woodside Park, High Barnet, beyond Mill Hill East, etc.].

But then, whichever powers that be, decided that a problem with the weakening road overbridge at Crouch End station would be solved by the erection of additional supports standing in the middle of the Down line. Thereafter all the LT stock trips had to travel in both directions over the Up line between No.7 and Park Junction (LT) boxes under Single Line Working, with a BR relief signalman as Pilotman.

As an amusing(?) aside, I was travelling over the GN into Kings Cross on a Cravens DMU en route to work one afternoon (1972?), after the Up Branch bridge at Finsbury Park had closed to all traffic, when, whilst going through Copenhagen Tunnel on the Up Fast I was sure I could hear additional clickety-clacking that was out of sync. with my train, meaning that there was another train running somewhere alongside which could only have been on the Up Slow, yet peering straight out through the window into the gloom the DMU's tungsten interior lighting made it only just about possible to discern the passing brickwork of the bore's east side, suggesting that there was nothing on the adjacent track; - yet the noise persisted, so looking again, I then noticed, there, roughly at window sill level, were the curved blackened-brown rooves of 'tube' carriages travelling more slowly than us, en route to the Farringdon reversal and Neasden! And as both trains exited the tunnel, daylight clearly showed the battery loco at the head of the train of 1938 stock.