The 'Holloway bank' area

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StevieG
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Re: Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

Post by StevieG »

manna wrote:G'day Gents

Lovely bit of work that , labour of love. Eh !

manna
Couldn't agree more Mickey. Very reminiscent of actual box diagrams' style with the points curves and tapering signal posts.

Better than my 'toilet roll'-looking (only 5" wide, thin paper; also not in best 'nick' now) effort when I was 19, of Gasworks-Langley (via WGC) & Wood Green-Langley via Hertford, correct to a particular 1970 date : Far less neat (and complicated by point 'N' positions, track circuits & all the numbers.)
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:
manna wrote:G'day Gents

Lovely bit of work that , labour of love. Eh !

manna
Couldn't agree more Mickey. Very reminiscent of actual box diagrams' style with the points curves and tapering signal posts.
Thank you very much Stevie that is 'high praise' indeed coming from yourself, yes as you would know the 'tapering signal posts' were a common feature of GN/LNER track diagrams so i thought i would continue the practice, the strange thing about that whole track layout diagram is more by luck than design it 'captured the feel' of that stretch of railway from Holloway South Up & Holloway South Down (boxes) to Hornsey No.1 (box) and what i may do is start a new thread and and try and post a lot more of the diagram if some of you are interested in seeing some more of it but it may take a little time cos my daughter has to do the printing cos i havn't got a clue how to do it!!.

I must admit the the whole of the Finsbury Park area from Ashburton Grove via Finsbury Park Nos.2,3,4,5 & 6 (boxes) including Western sidings & Finsbury Park Up sidings not only came out very well but there was a 'feel' about it being Finsbury Park as well.

Stevie, John & other's did you notice the ground position light signal in the Up Goods line facing towards the Finsbury Park direction opposite Holloway North Down (approximately where Holloway North Up box once stood)?.
I had forgotten about that ground position light signal so maybe there could have been a 'reversal move' controlled by Holloway South Up as John thought but how far that ground position light signal took a driver or where it went is anyone's guess?.

Mickey
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StevieG
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Re: Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

Post by StevieG »

FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... Stevie, John & other's did you notice the ground position light signal in the Up Goods line facing towards the Finsbury Park direction opposite Holloway North Down (approximately where Holloway North Up box once stood)?.
I had forgotten about that ground position light signal so maybe there could have been a 'reversal move' controlled by Holloway South Up as John thought but how far that ground position light signal took a driver or where it went is anyone's guess?.

Mickey
I did see it, and I don't remember it at all, but I'm not sure enough to say that it was never there; Can't see what its purpose would've been - It obviously couldn't get a train across to the Down side : A train Up the Coal road to go back down the 'Creep-up'(wrong direction)? - Or vice versa [up the Creep-up and shunt back along the Coal road to??? (were Hornsey Road Bridge sdgs. still there?) ].
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:
FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... Stevie, John & other's did you notice the ground position light signal in the Up Goods line facing towards the Finsbury Park direction opposite Holloway North Down (approximately where Holloway North Up box once stood)?.
I had forgotten about that ground position light signal so maybe there could have been a 'reversal move' controlled by Holloway South Up as John thought but how far that ground position light signal took a driver or where it went is anyone's guess?.

Mickey
I did see it, and I don't remember it at all, but I'm not sure enough to say that it was never there; Can't see what its purpose would've been - It obviously couldn't get a train across to the Down side : A train Up the Coal road to go back down the 'Creep-up'(wrong direction)? - Or vice versa [up the Creep-up and shunt back along the Coal road to??? (were Hornsey Road Bridge sdgs. still there?) ].
I'll have another look Stevie at my track layout diagram later on today and see if i can workout where it mite have lead to?.

From vague memory didn't one or two of those through goods roads coming from the East Goods direction towards the Hollway North Up area (then controlled by Holloway South Up) wasn't they cut short and turned into dead end siding roads instead?. I'll have another look at my diagram and see what i drew?.

Mickey

* * *I think i'll ask Richard to start a new thread?.
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Re: Holloway Bank - was Ally Pally

Post by richard »

Thread has been split at FINSBURY PARK 5's request. I think I may have lost a post from thesignalman at the split point - sorry!
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
Mickey

Re: Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:I did see it, and I don't remember it at all, but I'm not sure enough to say that it was never there; Can't see what its purpose would've been - It obviously couldn't get a train across to the Down side : A train Up the Coal road to go back down the 'Creep-up'(wrong direction)? - Or vice versa [up the Creep-up and shunt back along the Coal road to??? (were Hornsey Road Bridge sdgs. still there?) ].
From the ground position light signal (opposite Holloway North Down box) it reads through 2 connections (shown on my diagram) back along the top road as far as the connection with the 'Creep Up' then it carries on along at the same level as all the other running lines towards the East Goods direction then this road then opens out into x3 sidings roads 2 roads of which have 'run round' facilities (these 2 'run round roads' being those that run almost parallel and nearest to the 'Creep Up' at the lower level) so the other 2 roads in the sidings (not including the run round road) both end on a set of 'stops' at a higher level on the embankment above Ashburton Grove.

Also i have drawn the redundant x3 doll bracket signal post that once carried x3 separate GN miniture somersault signals (remember them Stevie?) because that redundant signal post was still there in April/May of 1974 i've drawn that signal post with it's main post beside the left-hand siding road of the x3 roads looking towards the Holloway South Up direction.

I havn't shown a exit signal on my diagram from the x3 sidings but i have a vague feeling that a STOP BOARD was provided instead of a fixed signal from the sidings with instructions to contact the signalman at Holloway South Up before passing this board.

I'll try and post the track layout of that area sometime in the next few days.

Mickey
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Re: The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by Dave Cockle »

Mickey, when I was a signalman at Wood Green No 4 1972/3 we used to receive telegraph messages concerning late running Class 1 trains on the Up Fast line. The messages came from Hatfield No 1 box. I don't ever recall our telegraph circuit going to Welwyn GC. I believe the circuit was HD - AU i.e Hatfield No 1 to Wood green No 4.

By the way Relief Signalman Dave Tilbury used to say AU stood for "Action Unlimited" as Wood Green No 4 was a busy little number. If you did twelve hour days there you went home physically tired.
Mickey

Re: The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by Mickey »

Dave Cockle wrote:Mickey, when I was a signalman at Wood Green No 4 1972/3 we used to receive telegraph messages concerning late running Class 1 trains on the Up Fast line. The messages came from Hatfield No 1 box. I don't ever recall our telegraph circuit going to Welwyn GC. I believe the circuit was HD - AU i.e Hatfield No 1 to Wood green No 4.

By the way Relief Signalman Dave Tilbury used to say AU stood for "Action Unlimited" as Wood Green No 4 was a busy little number. If you did twelve hour days there you went home physically tired.
Hiya Dave, as regards to Hatfield No.1 (box) 'sending on trains' on the s/n telegraph instrument on the Up lines i think especially when Frank Brandon was working Hatfield No.1 he use to 'send on' all late running Up expresses on to Finsbury Park 6 (GB) and somtimes to Holloway South Up (CS) although not to often to the latter box but you would usually hear on most days Hatfield No.1 'sending on trains' to Finsbury Park 6 (box) on the Kings Cross-Hitchin telegraph circuit. With regards to Welwyn Garden City (box) 'sending on trains' to Wood Green Up box No.4 also there was something written down in WGC box about doing that but it was hardly ever adhered to (not when i was at the box between 1972-74) likewise Wood Green No.1 on the Down lines would sometimes send on trains to WGC although the only regular train i remember Wood Green No.1 'sending on' to WGC on the s/n telegraph instrument was that evening freightliner 4S83 from Kings Cross Goods yard that would usually pass Wood Green about 7:pm during the weekday evenings and maybe the afternoon 'Scotch goods' from Kings Cross Goods yard may have been as well.

Back to the Holloway area i'll try and get my daughter to post some more of my track layout diagram in the next few days especially the Up side area from East Goods to Holloway North Up.

Mickey
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StevieG
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Re: The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by StevieG »

You're right about the S/N circuit at Wood Green 4 on which reports were received from Hatfield 1 Dave C. : But it's official labelling was the other way round, AU-HT, as all circuit namings seemed to be xxx (southern end) to xxx (northern end), despite in this case it being mainly populated by boxes on, or having to report, Up trains The 'Down side' equivalent was "YF-HT" -
- (I have a kind of manual spreadsheet of the telegr. circuits between KX and (approximately) Hitchin, showing what they were and which boxes etc. were connected to each one)
-

- HT = Hitchin Telegraph Office -
- YF = Wood Green No.3 Box -

- though by the time I got to see the remaining Wood Green boxes in about '67 -'69, No.3 had been abolished a few years earlier, and 'YF-HT' actually then started back at WG No.1 (WO) : Once I'd learned S/N for train reporting (it was used for little else by then, unlike earlier times), I recall that, as WG1 was required to do, I several times 'wired on' Down Class 4s and 6s for the signalman (Class 5 had been re-allocated for ECS by then) from WO, to PO, JV, CT, YE, WG and SG. -

- WO = Wood Green No.1 Box -
- PO = Potters Bar Box -
- JV = Hatfield No.3 Box -
- CT = (of course, :wink: ) Welwyn Garden City Box -
- YE = Welwyn North Box -
- WG = Woolmer Green Box -
- SG = Stevenage North Box. -

- The same was also required at WG1 for late or out of course running involving Down Class 1s and 3s, as I distinctly remember one evening where circumstances necessitated sending on "one S seven 0, No" (for 1S70, not yet passed as it was late or not yet left Kings Cross), "and three S one five" (3S15) with the minutes past the hour of its passing time (3S15 was booked to follow 1S70) : -
- Very satisfying (to have learned the S/N sufficiently to do that, unaided).
BZOH

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StevieG
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Re: Ally Pally - Finsbury Park question

Post by StevieG »

FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... From the ground position light signal (opposite Holloway North Down box) it reads through 2 connections (shown on my diagram) back along the top road as far as the connection with the 'Creep Up' then it carries on along at the same level as all the other running lines towards the East Goods direction then this road then opens out into x3 sidings roads 2 roads of which have 'run round' facilities (these 2 'run round roads' being those that run almost parallel and nearest to the 'Creep Up' at the lower level) so the other 2 roads in the sidings (not including the run round road) both end on a set of 'stops' at a higher level on the embankment above Ashburton Grove. .... "
I see, Mickey.
I'd thought that, if the dead-end Cattle Dock platform road and the adjacent sidings, at Holloway South Up were still officially operational, that GPLS could have acted as a 'Limit of Shunt' for moves propelled out of any of those roads onto the Up Goods before then heading south to KX station or Goods Yard.
FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... Also i have drawn the redundant x3 doll bracket signal post that once carried x3 separate GN miniture somersault signals (remember them Stevie?) because that redundant signal post was still there in April/May of 1974 i've drawn that signal post with it's main post beside the left-hand siding road of the x3 roads looking towards the Holloway South Up direction. .... " Mickey
I certainly do Mickey, it had controlled exit from each of the three Hornsey Road Bridge Sidings.

I also well remember getting leave from my then gang foreman in 1970, when we were working at Canonbury Station, to spend my lunch break walking to Canonbury Junction, and through Canonbury Tunnel, to Ashburton Grove and then up the 'creep up' to take a photo of those somersaults : Imagine how I felt on arrival to find that unbeknown to me, they'd been replaced by three new dolls with ordinary U/Q miniatures ! ( :shock: :( )
BZOH

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Mickey

The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:
FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... From the ground position light signal (opposite Holloway North Down box) it reads through 2 connections (shown on my diagram) back along the top road as far as the connection with the 'Creep Up' then it carries on along at the same level as all the other running lines towards the East Goods direction then this road then opens out into x3 sidings roads 2 roads of which have 'run round' facilities (these 2 'run round roads' being those that run almost parallel and nearest to the 'Creep Up' at the lower level) so the other 2 roads in the sidings (not including the run round road) both end on a set of 'stops' at a higher level on the embankment above Ashburton Grove. .... "
I see, Mickey.
I'd thought that, if the dead-end Cattle Dock platform road and the adjacent sidings, at Holloway South Up were still officially operational, that GPLS could have acted as a 'Limit of Shunt' for moves propelled out of any of those roads onto the Up Goods before then heading south to KX station or Goods Yard.
Yes i know what you mean Stevie that the ground position light signal could have acted as a 'Limit of Shunt' for any trains reversing or propelling out of the Cattle Dock sidings at Holloway South Up.
FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote:
StevieG wrote: " .... Also i have drawn the redundant x3 doll bracket signal post that once carried x3 separate GN miniture somersault signals (remember them Stevie?) because that redundant signal post was still there in April/May of 1974 i've drawn that signal post with it's main post beside the left-hand siding road of the x3 roads looking towards the Holloway South Up direction. .... " Mickey
I certainly do Mickey, it had controlled exit from each of the three Hornsey Road Bridge Sidings.
That was the proper name for those sidings then Stevie 'Hornsey Road Bridge sidings' thats interesting to know.
StevieG wrote:I also well remember getting leave from my then gang foreman in 1970, when we were working at Canonbury Station, to spend my lunch break walking to Canonbury Junction, and through Canonbury Tunnel, to Ashburton Grove and then up the 'creep up' to take a photo of those somersaults : Imagine how I felt on arrival to find that unbeknown to me, they'd been replaced by three new dolls with ordinary U/Q miniatures ! ( :shock: :( )
Yes i vaguely remember seeing those x3 GN miniture somersault signals the first time it would have been during the 2nd half of 1967 on my first trips from WGC Up to Kings Cross with my dad and also during 1968 but like you say Stevie they were (renewed) replaced with miniture upper quadrant signals around 1969/70 i presume at or about the time Holloway North Up (box) closed and the whole Up side area was put on Holloway South Up (box).

Mickey
Mickey

Re: The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by Mickey »

Just to let anyone know thats interested that we tried to post the track layout of the Holloway North Up/Hornsey Road Bridge sidings area dated April/May 1974 on Sunday evening but currently due to a technical problem with the pc/printer we was unable to do so but hopefully the problem will get sorted out in due course and then i shall post it, sorry guy's.

Mickey
Mickey

Re: The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by Mickey »

The running lines at the top of the 'Holloway bank' heading towards the Finsbury Park direction (top to bottom drawing) and showing the Hornsey Road Bridge sidings located along side the running lines on the Up side dated April/May of 1974 from part of a continuous drawing i made of the route between Holloway South Up & Holloway South Down (boxes) through Finsbury Park & Harringay stations to Hornsey No.1 (box) and the opposite Up running lines in the summer of 1974.

* * *I think there may have been a STOP AND AWAIT INSTRUCTIONS board provided at the exit to the Hornsey Road Bridge sidings by this date that i havn't shown but after more than 40 years since first i made this track layout drawing i can't honestly remember if there was such a board or not but if there had been a fixed signal to exit those sidings i would have included it on the diagram.* * *

Mickey
Attachments
holloway1.jpg
holloway2.jpg
holloway3.jpg
holloway4.jpg
Mickey

Re: The 'Holloway bank' area

Post by Mickey »

The top layout drawing shows the redundant former Holloway South Up semaphore distant signal posts which were still there about 4 years after Holloway North Up (box) had closed and the block section(s) on the Up lines was then between Finsbury Park 4 (box) & Holloway South Up (box). The bracket signal post that is situated between the Up fast & Up slow lines read from right to left as Holloway South Up (box) Up fast line distant signal, Up fast to Up slow line distant signal, Up slow to Up fast line distant signal & Up slow line distant signal. The bracket signal post on the Up Goods line was the redundant former Holloway South Up (box) Up Goods line distant signal.

The third layout drawing down shows the 'Creep Up' joining from the Ashburton Grove direction and also the Hornsey Road Bridge sidings.

The bottom layout drawing shows the buffer stops end of the Hornsey Road Bridge sidings and the enterance to the (then) shortened Up Goods line (or Up Coal line i am not sure of the correct name of this line?) that originally started virtually outside Finsbury Park 4 (box) and then ran parallel to the Up Goods, Up slow & Up fast lines but by 1973/74 was shortened back to commence just in the area of the Canonbury line overbridge, the lines appearing from the overbridge at the top of the diagram are at a lower level at Ashburton Grove.

Mickey
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