The 'Holloway bank' area

[Mickey]

Yeah your right about the number of train crew that would be in the front cab of those Battery locos John.

It's a pity that London UndergrounD didn't let one of there ex GWR 0-6-0 red pannier tanks work a train of northern line stock to & from Highgate Wood sidings if it had been possible for them to do so?.

A ex GWR 0-6-0 pannier tank running through Finsbury Park in 1970 'in steam' would have been a sight to see!!.

Mickey

* * *Topic heading changed to The 'Holloway bank' area.

[52H]

Hi all
If this move was unusual, the high number in cab was probably road learners to keep there route knowledge up to date.

52H

[StevieG]

" .... as I remember them reversing at Holloway South Up box while I worked there. ,,,, "

John

I didn't know that they ever made that move there John.
Temporary unavailability of some part of their normal route in the Fins. Pk. 2 &/or 3 Box areas perhaps : Bet S. Up / North Down finding a margin to get them across the High Level Crossover wasn't easy.

[Mickey]

Probably bit of a 'dumb' question but whenever LT northern line tube stock 'top & tailed' with LT Battery locos at either end arrived at Holloway South Up (box) out of interest where did it come from and where was it going too?.

It seems on the face of it a bit of a odd movement to perform reversing at Holloway South Up??.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

Too right! I am racking my brains as to what route it took and why!

I am certain that one of the routes was via the creep-up from Ashburton Grove but its other way continues to puzzle me. It is so long ago now.

One of the possibilities that has gone through my mind was that it actually went up the slow to Kings Cross and down the hole but that doesn't explain why it stopped in the cattle dock in front of the box while about 100 people (so it seemed) climbed out of the two battery engines and changed ends.

I am really not sure, sorry!

John

[Mickey]

Thanks John, i was just a bit curious to know a bit more about that reversing move at Holloway South Up?. Thanks anyway.

Sorry Stevie i deleted some of this post before i knew that you had quoted some of it sorry about that.

Mickey

[StevieG]

Too right! I am racking my brains as to what route it took and why!

I am certain that one of the routes was via the creep-up from Ashburton Grove but its other way continues to puzzle me. It is so long ago now.

One of the possibilities that has gone through my mind was that it actually went up the slow to Kings Cross and down the hole but that doesn't explain why it stopped in the cattle dock in front of the box while about 100 people (so it seemed) climbed out of the two battery engines and changed ends.

I am really not sure, sorry!

John

Having thought more carefully about the area's boxes' track layouts, I now realise that my earlier suggestion of a reason for reversal at Holloway South Up was partly wrong : I was thinking of such trains having the ability to reverse to 'the creep-up' (Up Carriage) in-section between Ashburton Grove (AG) and Fins.Pk. No.2 boxes, then via the creep-up and reverse again between Holl.Sth.Up and North Down, and then northward via the High Level Crossover.
But of course : -
a. - trains couldn't cross over at AG, so the only reason I can think of is non-availability of any of the trains' normally practicable routes through Fins.Pk. No.3 box's layout; then the trains could have reversed in-section between FP 2 & 3 boxes and gone back up the creep-up to Holloway, etc.
b. - but, hold on, unless my memory is inaccurate, by 1972 (after Holl.Nth.Up box had been abolished and the 'North' Up-side layout severely rationalised), I think there was no way on Holloway Up-side for a train off the creep-up to access the HL Xover, so the whole idea of reversal Up-to-Down at Holloway, fails.

I am therefore left only with the thought that, as John mentions, possibly the trains re-started onwards towards Kings Cross (York Road) and on to the City Widened Lines.
In this case [or even if some sort of reversal back northwards from Holloway was somehow possible], the reason for a train to stop at the cattle dock through platform on the old Up Coal line (instead of at the First Home signal; And this line would've become the Up Goods by then, under the rationalisation) and disgorge more than a few people remains unclear to me.; (as has been partly suggested before, training/route refresh?, 'snap' or other PNB?, cab rather over-packed and occupants re-organising who was squeezed in where/in what positions?)

.... " Finsbury Park 6 was a interesting job with still a fair bit of s/n telegraph work involved with Hatfield no.1 (box) 'sending on' late running Up expresses passing through Hatfield and with light engine & ECS movements being 'put on' the local Finsbury Park s/n telegraph circuit between the Finsbury Park boxes even as late as 1972/73.

Mickey "

.... And I recall complying once or twice to the instructions that New Barnet North send on late running local passenger trains to No.6 on the S/N, and also (possibly not official?) that Cemetery box (having the last Up Fast-Up Slow 'turn-in' before that at No.6) used the S/N to ask if ECS for carriage sidings at Finsbury Park (GB or EO) sidings could be dealt with on the Up Fast at No.6 : If "No" came back instead of "OK", then Cemetery turned them in to the Up Slow.

[Mickey]

but, hold on, unless my memory is inaccurate, by 1972 (after Holl.Nth.Up box had been abolished and the 'North' Up-side layout severely rationalised), I think there was no way on Holloway Up-side for a train off the creep-up to access the HL Xover, so the whole idea of reversal Up-to-Down at Holloway, fails.

It's funny i've been thinking about this LT stock move for several days now anyway i also thought that even if a train was to reverse through the trailing points of the 'long crossover' in the Up fast line opposite Holloway North Down (box) when it was worked from Holloway South Up that there wasn't a 'dolly' (ground disc signal) to make it a signalled move let alone to prove the detection through those trailing point ends.

Again sorry for deleting some of my previous post i didn't know you had quoted some of it Stevie sorry about that.

.... " Finsbury Park 6 was a interesting job with still a fair bit of s/n telegraph work involved with Hatfield no.1 (box) 'sending on' late running Up expresses passing through Hatfield and with light engine & ECS movements being 'put on' the local Finsbury Park s/n telegraph circuit between the Finsbury Park boxes even as late as 1972/73.Mickey "

.... And I recall complying once or twice to the instructions that New Barnet North send on late running local passenger trains to No.6 on the S/N, and also (possibly not official?) that Cemetery box (having the last Up Fast-Up Slow 'turn-in' before that at No.6) used the S/N to ask if ECS for carriage sidings at Finsbury Park (GB or EO) sidings could be dealt with on the Up Fast at No.6 : If "No" came back instead of "OK", then Cemetery turned them in to the Up Slow.

From memory Welwyn Garden City (box) was suppose to have 'sent on' to Wood Green Up box no.4 any late running Up expresses and fast goods on the Up fast line but when i was at the box between 1972-1974 i don't recall it ever really happening except on one occasion one early summer evening when it was still daylight and when the old lever frame was still in use sometime pre September 1973 when either Cecil White or Harry Fitzgerald was the signalman (i think it was Harry on reflection?) said to me call Wood Green 4 (on the s/n tele-instrument) but after sending AU AU AU AU AU AU AU... (AU was the s/n telegraph code for Wood Green Up box no.4) for a minute or two there was no response from the signalman at Wood Green 4 so i was told to leave it!.

Mickey

[StevieG]

" .... but, hold on, unless my memory is inaccurate, by 1972 (after Holl.Nth.Up box had been abolished and the 'North' Up-side layout severely rationalised), I think there was no way on Holloway Up-side for a train off the creep-up to access the HL Xover, so the whole idea of reversal Up-to-Down at Holloway, fails. "

" It's funny i've been thinking about this LT stock move for several days now anyway i also thought that even if a train was to reverse through the trailing points of the 'long crossover' in the Up fast line opposite Holloway North Down (box) when it was worked from Holloway South Up that there wasn't a 'dolly' (ground disc signal) to make it a signalled move let alone to prove the detection through those trailing point ends.

Mickey "

As you may remember Mickey, by then, the rationalised remains of the long "High Level" Crossover consisted only of a connection between the (Down) 'Through' carriage siding and the Up Fast, with a trailing slip in the Down Fast, and only fixed diamond crossings in the two Down Slows : And whereas, in its full form, North Down Box had had the four electric releases for the Crossover's various Down-side parts, which allowed the North Up signalman to do all the pulling, I'm sure that the rationalisation left operation of what remained transferred onto North Down, with South Up having the one remaining release (for the Up Fast).
The Through Siding miniature arm signal (+ 'orange' stencil route indicator)'s previously-existing route to the Up Fast was retained ; But Mickey, I'm also sure that 'dollies' (ground discs) for the Down Fast and Up Fast also remained (pulled from ND of course), although I don't think they would have seen much use apart from Single Line Working.

My earlier thought about reversing at South Up not being possible in the case under discussion, is that I'm pretty sure there was no way for trains coming off the 'Creep-up' to get to the Up Fast and come under control of the HL Crossover's UF 'dolly', unless they were to run to the UF near South Up Box, then reverse there and run back 'bang road', unsignalled, along the UF back to 'North' and the HLC dolly, which I doubt would have been allowed.

[thesignalman]

I am sure it didn't cross to the Down side. As you say North Up had gone and all was controlled from South Up by then and I don't think there was a crossover by then.

This is an intriguing puzzle I have set myself and others.

Just a thought - with No7 closed by then, there would have been no crossover at the top to use for the (by then) single-line working. Do we know which line was used for that? If it was the Up, maybe this was a complicated way to get it "wrong direction" to No6 box to go over the top?

Need to get some plans out to think about it . . .

John

[StevieG]

Good point about No.7 John.
But would the running of these trains have continued after the box closed? : As with the SLW remaining necessary, and the Down & Up Branch roads from/to Fins. Park's station Boxes 5 & 6 being uni-directional, there would then have still had to be at least one point end in the area of the closed No.7 box to be operated; an arrangement which I never heard of.

P.S. - ( Quite conscious that a lot of this is about other than the thread's title.)

[Mickey]

I'd like to echo Stevie's point this thread has strayed a bit further south of Finsbury Park and the Alley Pally branch, sorry everyone.

With regards to the Holloway South Up & Holloway North Down layouts i made a complete hand-drawn track diagram on a long piece of wallpaper of ALL the running lines (and sidings) of the route from Holloway South Up & South Down (s/boxes) including the 'Holloway bank' & Holloway North Down (box) through Finsbury Park station including Finsbury Park 2,3,4,5,6 (boxes) to Hornsey no.1 (box) dated April/May of 1974 that i drew in the spring of 1974 which i've still got although it's a bit fragile these days but it's still quite good to look at i'll have a look at it later and try and post what i drew this evening, i don't know if i can actually try and post some of this diagram i mite try that as well?.

My track layout diagram must be between 12 & 15ft long at a guess??.

PS It's not as good as your track diagrams John if you don't mind me saying yours are the best hand-drawn track diagrams i've ever seen!!.

Mickey

[Mickey]

A very small part of my hand-drawn continuos track layout diagram of the route between Holloway South Up & Holloway South Down (boxes) including the 'Holloway bank' Holloway North Down (box) Ashburton Grove (box) Clarence Yard diesel depot, Finsbury Park 2 (box) Western sidings, Finsbury Park 3,4,5, & 6 (boxes) Finsbury Park Up Carriage sidings also including the temporary I.B.section on the Down Fast & Down slow lines controlled by Finsbury Park 5 (box) to Harringay and the 'slewing' of the Up & Down running lines through Harringay station, Harringay Up Goods (box) controlling the Up fast & Up slow lines and the southern entrance to Ferme Park Down sidings, Ferme Park North Down & Hornsey No.1 (boxes) dated April/May 1974 drawn by myself around May 1974.

***Note the ground disc signal in the Up fast line opposite Holloway North Down (box) for a 'reversing move' through the 'long crossover' onto the Down lines.


Mickey

[manna]

G'day Gents

Lovely bit of work that , labour of love. Eh !

manna

[Mickey]

Ha ha thanks manna, i drew it when i was 17 years old back in 1974 and i originally drew it on one continuos roll of wallpaper and surprisenly it was virtually all pretty much to scale there was very few alterations by and large and it worked out quite well i was pleased with it when it was finished. I don't think it actually took that long to draw thinking back maybe several days only back in May or June of 1974, at present the roll of wallpaper with the drawing on is in a bit of a 'fragile' state so i keep it usually in a bag at the back of a cupboard.

I think i did have an idea to push on northwards beyond Hornsey no.1 (box) and draw Hornsey Up Goods (box) Wood Geen 1 (box) Wood Green Up box no.4 & Wood Green Up box no.2 but the roll of wallpaper i used for the above drawing ran out at Hornsey no.1 (box) and i never did get around to draw Hornsey Up Goods (box) or any of the Wood Green boxes track layouts although i do have a complete S&T track diagram of Hornsey Up Goods (box) dated 1959 and a diagram of Wood Green 1 (box).

Mickey