How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

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Mickey

Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by Mickey »

giner wrote:Ha Ha! Me too, Mickey. And once you got past Royston, well that was another planet. :lol:
To right giner Royston on the Cambridge branch but staying on the G.N.R./L.N.E.R. main line once you got passed Cambridge Junction (box) at Hitchin on the Down roads you was entering the G.N.R./L.N.E.R. 'Racing Grounds' of mile after mile of open roads and a twilight world with places with strange names like Three Counties, Arlesey, Everton, Tempsford, Offord, Abotts Ripton, Connington South & Connington North, Holme & Yaxley and a secret nether world that few people ever saw...

Mickey
J Yoder
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by J Yoder »

richard wrote:J. Yoder: Have the Bonavia and LNER 150 books - well recommended, and inexpensive because there are plenty on the UK book market (as you probably know, UK books rarely make it to the US shops although Half Price carry a surprising number of remaindered ones...). Don't know the Geoffrey Hughes book, but I have another of his, and would expect it to be well researched. Cecil Allen was with the GER / LNER and so he usually knew what he was talking about, but sometimes I think there are some biases.
The LNER 150 book is a pretty good overview/summary.
Bonavia's is actually in three small volumes. He was involved in the management in the later years, so his description of the the planning that was going on whilst Nationalisation was on the cards (eg. the economics of large scale diesel-ification) are particularly strong.
I've been haunting some of my used book sources. Some of these older books are very reasonably priced.
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by J Yoder »

I found a cheap copy of one of the Bonavia books and ordered it. :)
Mickey

Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by Mickey »

The L.N.E.R. Late Never Early

The L.M.S. Hell of a Mess

Mickey
J Yoder
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by J Yoder »

FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote:The L.N.E.R. Late Never Early

The L.M.S. Hell of a Mess

Mickey
That seems positive...was the LNER not considered successful? Is this what helped lead to nationalization?
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by 52D »

Tempsford. micky, i believe a certain American Major Miller G was last seen alive at this location.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
Mickey

Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by Mickey »

J Yoder wrote:
FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote:The L.N.E.R. Late Never Early

The L.M.S. Hell of a Mess

Mickey
That seems positive...was the LNER not considered successful? Is this what helped lead to nationalization?
Late Never Early was just a little saying. :wink:
Mickey

Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by Mickey »

52D wrote:Tempsford. micky, i believe a certain American Major Miller G was last seen alive at this location.
Yeah your right there 52D and legend has it that Mr.Miller wrote 'In The Mood' whilst drinking tea with the signalman in Tempsford box. :wink:

Tempsford level crossing & s/box was a nowhere place on the 4 track section between Sandy station to the south & st Neots station to the north with Barford power station seen in the far distance laying to the north west on the GNR/LNER 'Racing Grounds' between Hitchin & Peterborough.

Tempsford s/box located be side the Up Goods line that lasted until the summer of 1976 wasn't the original GNR box at Tempsford it had replaced an earlier GNR s/box located the 'other side' of the road level crossing and was of a similar design to Sandy or Huntingdon North No.2.

Tempsford s/box was actually a fairly good looking structure and quite pleasing to the eye i always thought. :wink:

Mickey
Last edited by Mickey on Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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thesignalman
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by thesignalman »

FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote:Tempsford s/box was actually a fairly good looking structure and quite pleasing to the eye i always thought.
Here's a photograph I "prepared earlier":
http://www.signalbox.org/gallery/e/tempsford.php

John
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Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by Graeme Leary »

Darn and blast it - just to see this list of books various replies have recommended makes me want to sit down and start chasing them 'on-line' despite the many I already have. (Like you I am a 'non-Brit' but as a New Zealander, part of the great old - ex - British Empire, have been raised with probably slightly more familiarity than you about the UK and with LNER matters in particular once I acquired my first Hornby Dublo set. I was 8 in 1950 when I first saw a model of A4 Mallard which I couldn't afford but which probably whetted my appetite for this particular company and has since been reinforced by many visits to parts of the UK that were in its area).
All that aside, the early responses are 100% correct; if you want to know any specific detail there seems to me (as a guy living on the opposite side of the world) that the Forum is populated by Brits who sit up all night answering any sort of question about the LNER - you will not be put wrong! (I am very grateful to many - and no doubt brassed a few off over some of my absolutely naff queries - but these same members have put me to rights over certain misconceptions I may have had).
Graeme Leary
PS: To hell with 'on-line'; I feel a visit to my travel agent and another 25 hours (each way) UK return trip flight is in order to actually look for them in person!
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by Hatfield Shed »

J Yoder wrote:That seems positive...was the LNER not considered successful? Is this what helped lead to nationalization?
There's a very big question, and 'to get a handle' on it really needs some historic perspective. Now, my views are those of a laissez-faire liberal, and may not concord absolutely with those of other orientations.

It all starts with land ownership. When the railways began as a transport network, every bit of land in the UK had an owner, and a legal enabler from the government ( Act of Parliament hereafter 'Act') was required to enable a railway route to be built. The Act gave those who had proposed the route detailed in a survey the right to purchase the land required, subject to various conditions. So right from the start, of necessity to prevent landowners simply refusing to sell land, there was a national government involvement.

Very rapidly indeed the people who made up the governments of the day began to recognise the value of the railway both to their own fortunes, and those of the nation. (The concept of the 'military-industrial complex' coined over a hundred years later, is recognisably emerging here.) A large number of entirely shareholder owned private companies built, owned and operated the railways throughout C19th and into C20th and the outbreak of WWI. At this point the UK's railway is effectively nationalised for the purpose of defeating Germany. It's a soft nationalisation however; the overlap between the railway owners and the ruling class forming governments was very large indeed.

Post WWI, the railways return to private ownership and operation, sort of: the government of the day institutes a pay and working conditions settlement applicable to all the UK's railway workers. This immediately makes all the railways in Scotland unprofitable. Nationalisation is looked at as a solution, but the there is no political appetite for it. Instead the grouping scheme is devised, and four groups still in private ownership are created by large scale mergers. Two smaller groups in the South of the UK which have no exposure to the Scottish problem, (think of that what you may) and two large groups, LMS on the west side of the country, LNER on the East side, both 'London to Scotland' in crude terms which would absorb the Scottish losses thanks to English earnings and thus keep the national railway system operational. (Militarily Scotland was essential to UK defence - and remains so.)

All the groups succeeded in operating railway services until nationalisation following WWII. The LNER was the least profitable and unable to make a real net profit for most of its existence, largely because the great depression hit hardest on its territory. (Bankruptcy was never a threat thanks to the large land and property holdings purchased under the Acts that enabled the railways, and after.) Despite its poor finances the LNER was more successful managerially (pressure of doing everything on a shoestring) and very efficient. The war was very hard on the entire UK railway system; on the credit side the LNER's big engine policy proved itself - it entered the war owning 80% of all the wide firebox locomotive power in the UK - so the poorest railway had the most effective big engine fleet! This proved a real winner and shaped future thinking about steam power.

When assessed at nationalisation, the LNER was pretty much the cheapest to operate in any category where comparison could be made, yet had been the leader in developing the big locomotives for the faster passenger and goods services that the railway needed to remain competitive. Nationalisation was a political imperative of a post war government. It wasn't absolutely necessary technically as the railways were not bankrupt (back to land ownership), but was a manifesto policy item of the party which won the election. (Your fellow countryman, Mr Terry Gilliam, directed an excellent film 'Brazil' as a projected fulfillment of the Nationalisation plan for the UK. Worth watching.)
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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by StevieG »

Fascinating, Hatfield Shed.
May I also add that although probably less important than advanced large locomotive design, the LNER was arguably ahead in modern signalling technology, with it's 1930s/40s power, non-lever-based installations at such as Thirsk, Northallerton, Leeds, Hull and Doncaster, and designed the then-giant OCS power signal box at York, though the war delayed its commissioning until post-nationalisation in 1949.
BZOH

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Re: How to Get A Handle on the LNER?

Post by richard »

"laissez faire liberal" is the kind of phrase you don't hear these days, but of course during the late 17th century and 18th century, it was the whigs who pushed for trade and were usually more in favour of technology. Even by the early railways, the Duke of Wellington (Tory) was often against or ignorant of such innovations.

I would also add that at Grouping, the companies were partly divided according to business. The UK hit "peak coal" around 1914, but coal still made up a huge amount of the freight trade. Although the LMS and GWR also had major coal fields, the LNER inherited the most coal traffic (a large chunk of the Yorkshire-Nottinghamshire coal field, plus the NER which literally made money carrying coal to Newcastle). Therefore it was hit particularly hard during the 1920s as the coal decline set in and then accelerated with the Depression. The size, balance, and structure of the Grouping companies was as if the railways were trading just before WW1 (a good guess in the immediate post-WW1 world) when in reality, the trade in the late 1920s was quite different. Hindsight is wonderful, of course.
Richard Marsden
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