Marshmoor Signalbox

[EddieBN]

I'm following your postings with great interest. Just to add, when I was there ( mid 60's) all the crossover had gone together with the up slow starter No.3 and the Hawkshead up slow to up fast turnout and I don't even think the diagram showed the Potters Bar down slow to down fast turnout. The only working levers on the down side ( apart from the down sidings connections ) were No's 22 & 23 on the fast and 29 & 30 on the slow. No.28 wasn't in use. You're quite right, when Redhall was abolished home signals 22 & 29 were positioned on a 'new' bracket in the same place as the tall concrete posts carrying the co-acting arms and Redhalls' down distant's'. Also,up slow distant No.1 had been relocated further back on to the old Redhall up bracket posts alongside up fast distant No.7. Sorry about the confusion about Stan Colbert....what I meant to say was, Stan was on duty at Barnet North covering someone's rest day, and I was his Tele Lad that day !

Eddie.

[Mickey]

You're quite right, when Redhall was abolished home signals 22 & 29 were positioned on a 'new' bracket in the same place as the tall concrete posts carrying the co-acting arms and Redhalls' down distant's'.

Thanks for your clarification Eddie I thought it mite have been that way.

Also,up slow distant No.1 had been relocated further back on to the old Redhall up bracket posts alongside up fast distant No.7.

Again I though it mite have been that way Eddie that white painted bracket signal post carrying Marshmoor's Up fast & Up slow lines semaphore distant signals originally belonged to Redhall (box) carrying that box Up lines home signals mainly because it was virtually opposite to where Redhall (box) once stood according to about the only picture i've ever seen of that box and that was a picture of it taken from a long distance away!. Redhall (box) was closed & abolished about 2 or 3 years before I 'came on the scene' taking an interest the GN suburban route during the summer/autumn of 1967.

By the way until about 2 years ago when I last visited Welwyn Garden City on the train when passing the site of Redhall i've noticed on several occasions in the past that on passing the spot where Marshmoor's Up lines semaphore distant signals once stood on that white painted bracket signal post the old concrete 'fog signalmans' hut is still standing along side the Up slow line all be it at a slightly lopsided angle!.

Mickey

[Eightpot]

Can't really add to the above, but living in Brookmans Park I often used to go in Marshmoor box in the early to late 1950s. The only signalman I can recall was one Arthur ??????? who was nearing retirement age and lived in one of the cottages on the opposite side of the line. Presumably he just walked to and from straight across the tracks - surely an ''Elf & Safety" issue today! He was building an L1 model of something like 2" gauge out of wood, I recall.Occasionally had a footplate trip on the morning pick-up goods while the yard was shunted in the morning, normally an N2 on this job. Does anyone remember that from the track behind the 'box (which led to the yard and Mowlems) that there was a set of points leading to track crossing the adjacent road and into Massils woodturning depot? Once saw a WD 2-8-0 traversing that sharp curve with protesting wheel flange sounds! The small Diesel (and earlier, steam) loco that shunted the Kelloggs wagons belonged to Mowlems.

[StevieG]

Can't really add to the above, but living in Brookmans Park I often used to go in Marshmoor box in the early to late 1950s. The only signalman I can recall was one Arthur ??????? who was nearing retirement age and lived in one of the cottages on the opposite side of the line. Presumably he just walked to and from straight across the tracks - surely an ''Elf & Safety" issue today! He was building an L1 model of something like 2" gauge out of wood, I recall.Occasionally had a footplate trip on the morning pick-up goods while the yard was shunted in the morning, normally an N2 on this job. Does anyone remember that from the track behind the 'box (which led to the yard and Mowlems) that there was a set of points leading to track crossing the adjacent road and into Massils woodturning depot? Once saw a WD 2-8-0 traversing that sharp curve with protesting wheel flange sounds! The small Diesel (and earlier, steam) loco that shunted the Kelloggs wagons belonged to Mowlems.

I think I just about remember residual rails crossing the road in the mid-'60s Eightpot.
Wasn't the private diesel named "London John" (and the steam loco before it?) ?

[EddieBN]

Yes, I can remember the Massils siding in the mid 60's, still in situ and connected up the to siding that ran behind the 'box, but by it's overgrown state, hadn't been used for some time.

Eddie.

[Eightpot]

Can't really add to the above, but living in Brookmans Park I often used to go in Marshmoor box in the early to late 1950s. The only signalman I can recall was one Arthur ??????? who was nearing retirement age and lived in one of the cottages on the opposite side of the line. Presumably he just walked to and from straight across the tracks - surely an ''Elf & Safety" issue today! He was building an L1 model of something like 2" gauge out of wood, I recall.Occasionally had a footplate trip on the morning pick-up goods while the yard was shunted in the morning, normally an N2 on this job. Does anyone remember that from the track behind the 'box (which led to the yard and Mowlems) that there was a set of points leading to track crossing the adjacent road and into Massils woodturning depot? Once saw a WD 2-8-0 traversing that sharp curve with protesting wheel flange sounds! The small Diesel (and earlier, steam) loco that shunted the Kelloggs wagons belonged to Mowlems.

I think I just about remember residual rails crossing the road in the mid-'60s Eightpot.
Wasn't the private diesel named "London John" (and the steam loco before it?) ?

Correct for both the Diesel and steam locos. However the steam one originally carried another name. I should be seeing a friend tomorrow who should be able to remind me what it was. Incidentally there were other steam locos at the Mowlem site in the early 1950s, they were named after districts in the Southampton area when the firm was doing a lot of work around the docks there.

[Mickey]

Incidentally there were other steam locos at the Mowlem site in the early 1950s, they were named after districts in the Southampton area when the firm was doing a lot of work around the docks there.

Southern steam at Southampton docks with short wheel based tank locos automatically brings to (my) mind the USA 0-6-0 tanks although i don't think any of them were given names but the thought of a possible USA tank working at Marshmoor is an interesting one?.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

Hi Mickey,
When I was at Marshmoor in the mid 60's I'm pretty sure we worked Absolute Block with Potters Bar on both the down lines and both the up lines. On both the up slow and up fast there were Intermediate Block Home signals located at Hawkeshead where the up slow to up fast turnout used to be. Between Marshmoors' up home signals and the IBH's were two further sets of signals acting as distant signals for the IBH's.

Good day, Eddie,

I can confirm that by the mid-60s when you were there, the both Main Lines were TCB (described as "Automatic & Semi-Automatic signalling" in the Sectional Appendix). The implication from the box diagram is that the Up Slow was worked by the same principle, although the SA is not explicit with regard to additional running lines.

The Up and Down Fast had been TCB after Hawkshead was abolished in 1926 but the Up Slow south of the turnout at Hawkshead was a Permissive Block Goods Line until the opening of the new box at Potters Bar in 1959. The reasoning behind this was that it was typical design feature on the GN for the last section of a Slow Line before convergence with the Main to be a Permissive Goods line to stack freights (in the old days) waiting a path. A turnout was always provided at the previous box (Hawkshead in this case) so that passenger trains could get round them.

This arrangement was no longer relevant when the four-tracking south of Potters Bar was provided (and with the opening of the new box there), so the Up Goods became a continuation of the Up Slow in 1959. The turnout at Hawkshead was effectively redundant at that date, although it survived for a few years before removal. The lines are shown as fully track-circuited through to Potters Bar's first signals on both Up lines on the diagram so I see no reason for it not to have been worked as TCB but I regret from my one shift as "Telegraph Boy" at Potters Bar around 1972 I cannot remember. Instruments were presumably provided there (built into the panel) anyway, for use when Marshmoor was out of switch.

The abolition of the control on the Down signal at Hawkshead coincided with the removal of the long crossing - its purpose was only for when the long crossing was in use as there was no adequate TCB overlap after the Down Home. I am surprised it wasn't retained as a fully automatic signal to break the section but it seems not.

At some point, perhaps after you were there, a Down Slow starter was added using lever 28 - this may have been in connection with Mowlem's sidings to allow trains to shunt ahead on the Down Slow without occupying the section.

Of all the boxes at that end of the GN, Marshmoor has always been the dark horse to me - it is one of few that I didn't find an excuse to visit and I had never located a photograph until that one cropped up on the Brookman's Park site mentioned above. So your memories, Eddie, along with other people's comments have been of great interest to me.

Kindest regards,

John

[Mickey]

The Up and Down Fast had been TCB after Hawkshead was abolished in 1926 but the Up Slow south of the turnout at Hawkshead was a Permissive Block Goods Line until the opening of the new box at Potters Bar in 1959. The reasoning behind this was that it was typical design feature on the GN for the last section of a Slow Line before convergence with the Main to be a Permissive Goods line to stack freights (in the old days) waiting a path. A turnout was always provided at the previous box (Hawkshead in this case) so that passenger trains could get round them.

This arrangement was no longer relevant when the four-tracking south of Potters Bar was provided (and with the opening of the new box there), so the Up Goods became a continuation of the Up Slow in 1959. The turnout at Hawkshead was effectively redundant at that date, although it survived for a few years before removal.

Now that you explained the reason for that 'turn out' from the Up slow to Up fast line at Hawkshead John it seems logical now so it was really a throw back to when the Up slow line ran into the Up goods line at Hawkshead (south of Brookmans Park station) towards Potters Bar.

...but I regret from my one shift as "Telegraph Boy" at Potters Bar around 1972 I cannot remember. Instruments were presumably provided there (built into the panel) anyway, for use when Marshmoor was out of switch.

As previously posted by me several times before in the past when I was doing the telegraph lads job at Welwyn Garden City box (1972-74) I actually done 3 separate Sunday turns around June/July of 1973 'cleaning' at Potters Bar box although by that date the old 1950s panel had been replaced by a small'ish conventional NX panel. A former telegraph lad called Alan Dollimore who became a good friend of mine in the late 1960s & early 1970s and who was also at Welwyn Garden City box himself circa 1962-63 once told me that there was some 'modern looking' block instruments at that box (possibly?) built into the 1950s panel it's self but obviously by 1973 they had gone along with the 1950s panel.

One little story I remember hearing all those years ago regarding Potters Bar box was just after the box had closed either around late 1973 or early 1974 (I can't remember the exact date?) a local 'new boy' manager who's nickname was 'Golden Wonder' (cos he had red'ish hair and was a bit green about railways, I wonder wot became of him?) apparently made an approach to someone at British Rail about using the former box as his personal flat to live in?. Talk about living on top of the job??.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

As previously posted by me several times before in the past when I was doing the telegraph lads job at Welwyn Garden City box (1972-74) I actually done 3 separate Sunday turns around June/July of 1973 'cleaning' at Potters Bar box although by that date the old 1950s panel had been replaced by a small'ish conventional NX panel. A former telegraph lad called Alan Dollimore who became a good friend of mine in the late 1960s & early 1970s and who was also at Welwyn Garden City box himself circa 1962-63 once told me that there was some 'modern looking' block instruments at that box (possibly?) built into the 1950s panel it's self but obviously by 1973 they had gone along with the 1950s panel.

Hi Mick,

I certainly remember the instruments being incorporated in the old panel, I just can't remember which lines they applied to and when . . .

I didn't see the new panel you mention but a quick look at the records shows that as installed 19/11/72. I do remember that the old panel somehow ended up dumped in the open at Finsbury Park for a while.

John

[Mickey]

I didn't see the new panel you mention but a quick look at the records shows that as installed 19/11/72. I do remember that the old panel somehow ended up dumped in the open at Finsbury Park for a while.

The rather conventional looking 1972 Potters Bar NX panel compared to it's 'illustrious' 1950s predecessor was a rather plain looking thing in comparison as you would expect John similar to what they installed in New Barnet North Box (the 2nd NX panel) Hatfield No.2, Welwyn Garden City & Langley Junction boxes on the main line and around the Hertford branch at Gordon Hill & Hertford North boxes as well although I dare say the Potters Bar 1972 NX panel is still around today located in the Potters Bar relayroom I would imagine?.

Funny you should mention that the original 1950s panel after being decommissioned was 'dumped' in the open at Finsbury Park for a while John because back in 1979 when I was then around the Stratford area of the GE one day I was in Temple Mills marshalling yards very near to Leyton Engineers Depot and someone that I was with that day told me that the 1950s Potters Bar panel was housed close by in storage in the Engineers depot believe it or not?.

Out of interest I have previously posted this claim about the 1950s Potters Bar panel being in storage in Leyton depot back in 1979 once before several years ago on the Potters Bar 1955 panel thread.

Mickey

[Mickey]

At some point, perhaps after you were there, a Down Slow starter was added using lever 28 - this may have been in connection with Mowlem's sidings to allow trains to shunt ahead on the Down Slow without occupying the section.

I don't ever recall Marshmoor (box) having a Down slow line starting signal (towards Hatfield No.1?) anytime between 1968-1972 so I presume this signal existed pre-1968(?) although logically thinking about it a Down slow line starting signal situated between 200-300 yards beyond the box towards the Redhall direction would have been useful in hindsight especially for as you say John trains that required to access Marshmoor sidings in that after passing the box along the Down slow line and stopping then setting-back into the Down sidings it wouldn't then be necessary to 'put the train on the block' (shunting into forward section) to Hatfield No.1 box (if it was authorised between both boxes?).

Mickey

[StevieG]

" .... The abolition of the control on the Down signal at Hawkshead coincided with the removal of the long crossing - its purpose was only for when the long crossing was in use as there was no adequate TCB overlap after the Down Home. I am surprised it wasn't retained as a fully automatic signal to break the section but it seems not. .... "

Kindest regards,

John

At some point, perhaps after you were there, a Down Slow starter was added using lever 28 - this may have been in connection with Mowlem's sidings to allow trains to shunt ahead on the Down Slow without occupying the section.

" I don't ever recall Marshmoor (box) having a Down slow line starting signal (towards Hatfield No.1?) anytime between 1968-1972 so I presume this signal existed pre-1968(?) although logically thinking about it a Down slow line starting signal situated between 200-300 yards beyond the box towards the Redhall direction would have been useful in hindsight especially for as you say John trains that required to access Marshmoor sidings in that after passing the box along the Down slow line and stopping then setting-back into the Down sidings it wouldn't then be necessary to 'put the train on the block' (shunting into forward section) to Hatfield No.1 box (if it was authorised between both boxes?). "

Mickey

I have to go with Mickey on this one John, similarly not seeing a DS Starter at any time during that period, and not being aware that there'd ever been one during some time before that (see, IIRC, both of R.Pike's previously-posted different Marshmoor illuminated diagrams), though I have once seen an ancient photo, possibly from GNR times, with somersault starters on both Down roads.
Does 'your' diagram showing a 28 DS Starter, have a date?

On top of which, throughout that same '68 - early '70s period, 28 lever remained red and always seen Reversed with a lever collar on, as it was an (apparently still-operational) control on the still extant, aspect-repeated Down Fast signal M28 at Hawkshead (also see R.Pike's previously-posted Marshmoor illuminated diagram - I think it's shown thereon as a Semi-Auto?), though I similarly don't know why that control was retained, other than possibly following the same practice that had the DF and UF solitary Auto signals between Stevenage North and Hitchin South provided with substantial slide-switches for replacement, at the boxes in advance.

I always thought that this control being by 28 lever a little odd, as the Down Slow Distant and Home being 30 & 29, 28 would indeed have been likely to have worked a DS starter at one time, bolstered by the fact that, with the Down Fast Home and Distant being 22 & 23, the Spare at 24 could have logically been the control on the Hawkshead signal; though, if conventionally Reversed when the signal was not to be put to/maintained at Danger, that would have meant that clearing the Home and Distant would have required the undesirable pulling of 23 between already-Reversed 22 and 24 : - Yet 24 (whose previous function I have never known) had a short handle !

[StevieG]

As previously posted by me several times before in the past when I was doing the telegraph lads job at Welwyn Garden City box (1972-74) I actually done 3 separate Sunday turns around June/July of 1973 'cleaning' at Potters Bar box although by that date the old 1950s panel had been replaced by a small'ish conventional NX panel. A former telegraph lad called Alan Dollimore who became a good friend of mine in the late 1960s & early 1970s and who was also at Welwyn Garden City box himself circa 1962-63 once told me that there was some 'modern looking' block instruments at that box (possibly?) built into the 1950s panel it's self but obviously by 1973 they had gone along with the 1950s panel.

Hi Mick,

I certainly remember the instruments being incorporated in the old panel, I just can't remember which lines they applied to and when . . .

I didn't see the new panel you mention but a quick look at the records shows that as installed 19/11/72. I do remember that the old panel somehow ended up dumped in the open at Finsbury Park for a while.

John

On 11/05/16, in this thread, I wrote :

" .... And Potters Bar panel had, all built-in, not only illuminating 'non-pegger' green and red Block indications ('Normal' was indicated by no light) always in use for the Down Slow northwards, but also another the same for the Down Fast, and, for both Up lines, 'pegger' commutators and R/G Block indications (and time-delay Line Clear Cancel plungers as part of the 'Welwyn' Controls instead of having to 'go round the handle') - the latter three only coming into use, communicating with Hatfield No.1, when Marshmoor switched out on the lines concerned : PB already only had bell communications for signalling all four lines northwards at all times, so it was only the three 'Blocks' that went in and out of operation according to whether or not Marshmoor was in-switch. .... "

[thesignalman]

I have to go with Mickey on this one John, similarly not seeing a DS Starter at any time during that period, and not being aware that there'd ever been one during some time before that (see, IIRC, both of R.Pike's previously-posted different Marshmoor illuminated diagrams), though I have once seen an ancient photo, possibly from GNR times, with somersault starters on both Down roads.
Does 'your' diagram showing a 28 DS Starter, have a date?

No date as such - it is quite late, but it isn't a complete diagram and came from a rough sketch rather than an official document so maybe it is erroneous. I certainly wouldn't argue over its existence. Unfortunately neither of R.Pike's plans seems recent enough to show Kelloggs.

John