Marshmoor Signalbox

[R. pike]

The early console from Potters Bar panel while still double track to Greenwood...

[StevieG]

I have to go with Mickey on this one John, similarly not seeing a DS Starter at any time during that period, and not being aware that there'd ever been one during some time before that (see, IIRC, both of R.Pike's previously-posted different Marshmoor illuminated diagrams), though I have once seen an ancient photo, possibly from GNR times, with somersault starters on both Down roads.
Does 'your' diagram showing a 28 DS Starter, have a date?

No date as such - it is quite late, but it isn't a complete diagram and came from a rough sketch rather than an official document so maybe it is erroneous. I certainly wouldn't argue over its existence. Unfortunately neither of R.Pike's plans seems recent enough to show Kelloggs.

John

Ah, I see your thinking John.
In fact, 'Kellogg's'/Mowlem's was there, though it's unusually not evident from those diagrams (or any others that I have ever seen), which it can therefore be said, were hardly helpful in this.
The key is that what appears to be the trap point at the siding end of No.20 points, is misleading in that the siding actually continued northwards (and no, I never saw or knew, of 21 disc ever being a 'yellow'), passing outside the there-commencing boundary fence of the Down Slow while paralleling that line for roughly 400-500 yards as it continued up the gently rising gradient atop the slowly-increasing-in-height DS cutting side, and was highly effectively separated from the adjacent parallel road [currently labelled in the AtoZ as the southern part of Travellers Lane] for much of its length by the protection ( ) of a couple-of-feet-wide band of grass. Then finally starting to curve westwards just before the main line bore slightly right past Redhall box and on towards Oxlease and old Hatfield. Unfortunately I never ventured up that road to explore the layout of the 'Mowlem'/'Kellogg's' sidings.
Traffic was brought along the siding to/from the main Down Sidings by the private 'London John' loco, and was, AFAIR (perhaps EddieBN can recall more definitely) attached and detached at different time(s) by the main train locos (& part of their trains if necessary) while the (rest of) the train stayed on the DS.

[Mickey]

Unfortunately I never ventured up that road to explore the layout of the 'Mowlem'/'Kellogg's' sidings.
Traffic was brought along the siding to/from the main Down Sidings by the private 'London John' loco, and was, AFAIR (perhaps EddieBN can recall more definitely) attached and detached at different time(s) by the main train locos (& part of their trains if necessary) while the (rest of) the train stayed on the DS.

For the people who never saw or knew of the Marshmoor Down sidings from memory the siding consisted of 2 parallel roads (there was a fair size gap between both these siding roads for road vehicles to use) laying to the west of and parallel to the main line and was several yards away from the Down slow line. Both siding roads ran straight from each of there buffer stops for a distance of about 150-200 yards before converging into one road outside Marshmoor box where just before the box there was a set of 'double-slip diamonds' which had a connection into the Down slow line from either siding no.1 or siding no.2 roads. The single line continued to run behind the back of the box towards another near by and 2nd set of points/connection into the Down slow line with also a single line running off this connection towards the Mowlems factory enterance. The single line road that entered into the Mowlems factory line from the 2nd set of points first entered through a white'ish/grey'ish painted wooden 'gate' just beyond Marshmoor box that was usually left closed across the railway and the enterance to Mowlems factory unless shunting was in operation and by the late 1960s onwards shunting of Marshmoor sidings was usually performed by a 0-6-0 350hp diesel shunter (class 08) loco. The Mowlems single line siding road continued from the 'wooden gate' and ran virtually parallel to the Down slow line for several hundred yards all the time on a slightly rising gradient before turning into a fairly sharp left-hand curve into the Mowlems factory complex just short of where the main line curves away to the right underneath the concrete motorway flyover towards Redhall & Hatfield direction. Back outside Marshmoor box there was 2 connections either side of the box both leading into the Down slow line and at either end of both these two connections there were 4 in total red faced ground disc-signals.

Mickey

[StevieG]

..... Although in different words, I thought I'd already said about half of that Mickey.

[Mickey]

..... Although in different words, I thought I'd already said about half of that Mickey.

No disputing that you didn't Stevie but given half a chance I always like writing something on the route between Kings Cross & Hitchin during the late 1960s & early 1970s.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

For the people who never saw or knew of the Marshmoor Down sidings from memory the siding consisted of 2 parallel roads (there was a fair size gap between both these siding roads for road vehicles to use) laying to the west of and parallel to the main line and was several yards away from the Down slow line.

Something that I don't think has been said here is that these two sidings are shown on large-scale maps as "Coal Yard" - were they used as such latterly?

John

[EddieBN]

Hi Everyone,
Mickey mentioned the possibility there may have been a down slow starting signal at some time pre the 1970's, but in my short stay there (mid 60's) there wasn't one there. It's a long time ago and I don't remember the method of working the "Kelloggs" trains using the down sidings. Obviously ILC would have been required from Hatfield No.1 to pull off the down slow home to get access to the sidings but I can't remember how it worked after that with regard to the block working ! AFAIR the "Kelloggs" train would set back into the down sidings (clear of the down slow) - the loaded vans exchanged for the empties previously brought down from the warehouse. I think the loco moving the empties from the "Kelloggs" warehouse was owned by Mowlems (was it a green O-4-0 ??) . Stevie, you're right about the Kelloggs/Mowlems long siding on quite a steep gradient up into the Mowlems plant. IIRC once at the top the Kelloggs vans would have to set back into the warehouse on a very tight curve (about 90% to the main line ?). Yes, those two sidings, the "Coal Yard", were still in use for that.

Eddie.

[Mickey]

Mickey mentioned the possibility there may have been a down slow starting signal at some time pre the 1970's, but in my short stay there (mid 60's) there wasn't one there.

Sorry Eddie that wasn't me who suggested that there may have been a Down slow line starting signal at sometime pre-1970s?. Personally speaking I never saw a Down slow line starting signal belonging to Marshmoor box from anytime when I first saw the box during the summer of 1967 onwards until when the box closed in November 1972.

With regards to the x4 red faced disc-signals on the ground outside the box nos.19,21,25 & 27 personally I can't see any reason why both disc-signals nos.21 & 27 couldn't have been yellow faced disc-signals because both disc-signals when read 'straight' road they lead from the Down sidings through no.26 points (normal) behind the back of the box and through no.20 points (normal) towards Mowlems factory via the long siding road?. I presume regardless what colour those two disc-signals were both no.21 & no.27 levers would still require a 'line clear' release from either Redhall or Hatfield No.1 boxes when either no.26 or no.20 points were reversed towards the Down slow line and either disc-signal was 'cleared' towards the Down slow line. Maybe either the Operating department or the S&T depatrment preferred that both 'dollies' were red faced rather than yellow faced?.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

Sorry Eddie that wasn't me who suggested that there may have been a Down slow line starting signal at sometime pre-1970s?. Personally speaking I never saw a Down slow line starting signal belonging to Marshmoor box from anytime when I first saw the box during the summer of 1967 onwards until when the box closed in November 1972.

It was me who was guilty of that, but given the evidence presented here I am fast coming to the conclusion that it was either a proposed signal that never came to anything or an error by the author. I received it as a rough sketch in the 1970s and cannot now remember even who gave it to me.

It is actually quite unusual in GN practice to have to shunt into a section to reverse into sidings (starters were usually provided) and I think I am right in saying that the LNER did not use the 3-3-2 shunting into forward section bell signal until the BR 1960 Regulations came into force so it is likely that the official way to shunt inside was to signal the train forward and subsequently cancel it off.

Best regards,

John

[Mickey]

Marshmoor s/box taken in August 1971 about 15 months before closure in November 1972.

The line in front of the box is the Down slow line and the line running behind the back of the box is the line leading either to & from the Down sidings (to the left) or (to the right) via the north connection just beyond the box through no.20 points (normal) & no.21 disc-signal 'cleared' straight route towards Mowlems single line siding & factory or through no.20 points (reversed) & no.21 disc-signal 'cleared' towards the Down slow line towards the Redhall & Hatfield direction. Photograph by M.A.King.

Mickey

[StevieG]

With regards to the x4 red faced disc-signals on the ground outside the box nos.19,21,25 & 27 personally I can't see any reason why both disc-signals nos.21 & 27 couldn't have been yellow faced disc-signals because both disc-signals when read 'straight' road they lead from the Down sidings through no.26 points (normal) behind the back of the box and through no.20 points (normal) towards Mowlems factory via the long siding road?. I presume regardless what colour those two disc-signals were both no.21 & no.27 levers would still require a 'line clear' release from either Redhall or Hatfield No.1 boxes when either no.26 or no.20 points were reversed towards the Down slow line and either disc-signal was 'cleared' towards the Down slow line. Maybe either the Operating department or the S&T depatrment preferred that both 'dollies' were red faced rather than yellow faced?.

Sorry Eddie that wasn't me who suggested that there may have been a Down slow line starting signal at sometime pre-1970s?. Personally speaking I never saw a Down slow line starting signal belonging to Marshmoor box from anytime when I first saw the box during the summer of 1967 onwards until when the box closed in November 1972.

It was me who was guilty of that, but given the evidence presented here I am fast coming to the conclusion that it was either a proposed signal that never came to anything or an error by the author. I received it as a rough sketch in the 1970s and cannot now remember even who gave it to me.

It is actually quite unusual in GN practice to have to shunt into a section to reverse into sidings (starters were usually provided) and I think I am right in saying that the LNER did not use the 3-3-2 shunting into forward section bell signal until the BR 1960 Regulations came into force so it is likely that the official way to shunt inside was to signal the train forward and subsequently cancel it off.

Best regards,

John

" .... and the line running behind the back of the box is the line leading either to & from the Down sidings (to the left) or (to the right) via the north connection just beyond the box through no.20 points (normal) & no.21 disc-signal 'cleared' straight route towards Mowlems single line siding & factory or through no.20 points (reversed) & no.21 disc-signal 'cleared' towards the Down slow line towards the Redhall & Hatfield direction. "

Some relevant details from my site sketch notes :-
Lever Badges : -
"21
No.1
DOWN SIDING
TO
DOWN SLOW
20"

"27
DOWN SIDINGS
Nos. 1 & 2
TO 21 DISC
NIL
-----
DOWN SLOW
20.21 OR 26"

Plus, Locking Chart (of time when long crossover still in use but, sorry, date not recorded)
states : -
21 - Released by 20 - Locks 19
27 - Released by (21 if 20 Reverse) - Locks 11.

So, 27 disc could be cleared towards 21 disc at Danger provided that 20s were Normal, or with 21 'Off' if 20s were Reverse; but there could be no clearing of 21 towards the 'Mowlem's siding.
And, chart also shows 'Released by "(LINE CLEAR)" ' for both Down Home signals, but not for 21 or 27 discs.

So everything was as one might expect it to have been given how things were shown on the box diagram which had the end of 20s nearest the box drawn as if it was just a normal siding trap point, with no indication that the siding continued to 'Mowlem's, as if that didn't exist.

[Also, Re previous posts about the Down Main signal M28 at Hawkshead :-
"28
DOWN MAIN
OUTER
HOME.
(SEMI-AUTO)"

( - Yes, "MAIN", not Fast: I hadn't recalled, but now see that all the relevant lever badges here still had that term: Unusual by this time in my experience.)

And Locking Chart says : -
28 - Released by (Nil) - Locks 15.17.

(11, 15 & 17 were some of the crossover's points levers.)

Re 21 & 27 discs being Line Clear-released towards the Down Slow, you'll see there was no such condition on the lever badges and I don't recall their levers having the customary associated white band : In fact in all 'my' GN boxes, IIRC, a LC release and/or white band on a disc which could read into an Absolute Block section was very rare.
BUT, without being able to remember where/which (possibly Barnet North or Hatfield), I'm sure I was told of instances where (as for the majority of running 'section signals', with 'Line Clear; One Pull' operating) on those running signals which also protected trailing points from sidings or shunting crossovers, it was arranged that if a disc reading into the section, but having a LC-release lock, was cleared while the Block was at Line Clear, the LC was in effect 'used' by the clearing of the disc, so that the 'section signal' could not then be cleared without a fresh LC from the advance box. This was probably achieved by having a circuit controller fitted, operating from the disc lever's tail, to detect when the lever was pulled.
So it was up to the signalman's diligence not to let something out of the siding or to shunt across from another line unless he'd got a LC: Might sounds risky now, but then (around 1970) was effectively no worse than those six boxes round the Hertford 'Loop' which had no LC release lock on one or both running 'section signals' at the same period.

Regarding Shunting into Forward Section (3-3-2 bell signal), I never saw or heard of that being used anywhere in the London/Herts. area 'GN' boxes.
And there were only two 'S' Shunt-Ahead signals in the area.; Although their presence didn't necessarily mean that 3-3-2 was authorised. They were below the Up Canonbury Starter at Finsbury Park No.1, and the Down Goods Starter at Goods & Mineral Junction : In both cases there was a tunnel in the section ahead.

[ Edited thrice, to 10:41 31/05/16, to clarify/enhance content.]

[Mickey]

Regarding Shunting into Forward Section (3-3-2 bell signal), I never saw or heard of that being used anywhere in the London/Herts. area 'GN' boxes.

I wouldn't stake my life on it Stevie but I have a 'vague feeling' that when I was at Welwyn Garden City (box) as a tele-lad especially during the time the lever frame and block working was still in force with Welwyn North box between July 1972-September 1973 the time I was there there was a infrequent move made of a light engine being stood behind a ground disc-signal in the Down Goods line behind a set of traps about 100 yards beyond the box (this move happened about two or maybe three times at most when I was there) anyway I have a vague feeling that the light engine was 'put on the block' to Welwyn North via the 3-3-2 Shunting Into Forward Section bell and after the light engine was brought back into the Down slow line platform the 8 bells Shunt Withdrawn bell was sent to Welwyn North box and he dropped the block needle.

The Shunting Into Forward Section was only used between 2 s/boxes where it was specially authorised in the s/box Special Instructions.

Doing the Shunting Into Forward Section as it was performed by some signalmen where it wasn't authorised between two s/boxes as John previously posted was the unofficially way of doing it. The train would be offered on by the signalman at the box in the rear to the box in advance 'on the block' which would be accepted by the signalman at the box in advance and a 'line clear' given on the block instrument to the signalman at the box in the rear. When the 'shunt move' had been completed by the signalman at the box in the rear the signalman at that box would then cancel the train off to the signalman at the box in advance (3-5 bell) and the signalman at the box in advance would acknowledge the cancelling bell code and 'drop the needle' on the block instrument and where provided would wind the 'Welwyn Control' handle around. The trouble with doing it the 'unofficial' way was the signalman at the box in advance technically should have kept the 440 yards 'clearing point' beyond his home signal clear or free and not infringe it in anyway even though the train that was accepted by him from the box in the rear was only shunting beyond that box or the home signal at that box and not travelling right through the block section between both s/boxes.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

I beg to differ, Mickey, but that was the official way to do it if 3-3-2 was not authorised. 3-3-2 tended to be authorised where such arrangements would regularly mess up the goings-on at the next box by fouling the clearing point.

It is also worth noting that on Permissive Goods lines 3-3-2 did not require authorisation at any time so should have always been used when needed. I have certainly seen it used between Wood Green No2 and Wood Green No4 on the Up Goods, where the section was so short that the shunt also required putting on to Hornsey Goods by No4 box.

All of the above refers to the BR 1960 regulations - the LNER regulations applied then and did not use it at all. There was an interesting accident at Ardlsly on 26th October 1959 where a shunt was not put on the block at all, and forgotten. With failures of other staff and also inspectors that wore blinkers to cover their backsides it turned into a disaster. It is well worth a read:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/events ... ventID=257

John

[Mickey]

I beg to differ, Mickey, but that was the official way to do it if 3-3-2 was not authorised. 3-3-2 tended to be authorised where such arrangements would regularly mess up the goings-on at the next box by fouling the clearing point.

Ok John thanks I wasn't aware of that I thought it was a 'unofficial way' of two signalmen performing the Shunting Into Forward Section between two s/boxes where the regulation wasn't authorised.

Mickey

[StevieG]

" .... It is also worth noting that on Permissive Goods lines 3-3-2 did not require authorisation at any time so should have always been used when needed. I have certainly seen it used between Wood Green No2 and Wood Green No4 on the Up Goods, where the section was so short that the shunt also required putting on to Hornsey Goods by No4 box.

All of the above refers to the BR 1960 regulations - .... "

... And of course the DG from WGC to Welwyn North was Permissive, terminating with WN's 27 Home signal and 26 trap point & crossover, to the Down Main.
I recall once seeing the DG used for a shunt move as you mentioned Mickey (through 16 trap Reversed, to stand and wait behind 17 dolly), but not how it was handled on the Block.
That was for a terminated Down local DMU that had had to vacate the Down Slow platform to allow the connecting parly to come in, call, and depart to the DM and away: When the DMU was ready to cross to the Up side after arriving and terminating, there was no margin between non-stopping Down and Up Fast trains to shunt it DS-DM-US straight away to get there, so it was shunted forward onto the DG to clear the platform : The DMU then had to come back into the DS platform after the parly had gone, and then cross to the Up side.

Incidentally, just had a look at the 1960 Sectional Appendix, which confirmed my hunch that, then at least, the Up Goods between Wood Green boxes 2 and 4 was shown as Absolute Block - perhaps due to its shortness, and/or its sharp curvature all the way, in running outside the Up Branch line which, in turn, ran along the outer side of the easternmost of the two Up side platform islands?