Marshmoor Signalbox

[EddieBN]

Been looking at 1961 GN Mainline Steam video as posted by Palace Gates on April 17th. Really great shots of some of my old haunts ( Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Potters Bar and Marshmoor ) Especially the A1 stopped on the up fast at Marshmoor...I wonder what that was all about ? Also interesting to see the original layout with the crossover in situ from the up slow right across to the downside siding behind the 'box together with all the slips into the up fast, down fast and down slow. Most of the track seems pretty rusty....obviously not used much if at all ! When I was there in the mid 60's all the crossover had disappeared by then but we still had two connections from the down slow into the down yard. We still had some coal traffic in the yard then but also had regular ( daily ) deliveries from Kellogg's in Manchester ( about ten vanfits at a time I think ). A small diesel loco would come down from the Kellogg's warehouse to collect them. Has anyone any idea of other traffic handled at Marshmoor in the 'old days' as the layout seemed a bit extravagant for the traffic handled. John Mowlem had their yard adjacent to Kellogg's warehouse and were also still rail connected in the mid 60's although very rarely used.

Eddie.

[Mickey]

Marshmoor (box) a off white/grey painted small'ish all wooden structure with a slate gable roof was situated beside the Down slow line a couple of hundred yards north of the present day Welham Green station the station being built and opened during the mid 1980s some 12 or 13 years after Marshmoor (box) had closed.

From the mid/late 1950s until Marshmoor closed in 1972 the box worked TCB (Track Circuit Block) over the Up slow, Up fast & Down fast lines with Potters Bar (box) and Absolute block over the Down slow line from Potters Bar to the south and worked Absolute block over the Up slow, Up fast, Down fast & Down slow lines with Redhall (box) to the north until that box closed circa 1964/65(?) afterwhich time Marshmoor worked to & from Hatfield No.1 (box) on all 4 running lines to the north until Marshmoor closed completely in November 1972.

Note: Cliff Loveland was a regular signalman at Marshmoor at the time of his early death in a light aircraft crash in 1968. See the Cliff Loveland topic thread under the LNER People pages.

Mickey

[Mickey]

Heres several picures taken of the railway at Marshmoor at different times and features a close up picture of Marshmoor box taken in 1967 and features signalman Alec Temple who may have retired in 1967?

http://www.brookmans.com/history/pictures/ch12.shtml

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey,
When I was at Marshmoor in the mid 60's I'm pretty sure we worked Absolute Block with Potters Bar on both the down lines and both the up lines. On both the up slow and up fast there were Intermediate Block Home signals located at Hawkeshead where the up slow to up fast turnout used to be. Between Marshmoors' up home signals and the IBH's were two further sets of signals acting as distant signals for the IBH's. Normal Absolute Block Working between Marshmoor and Hatfield No.1 on all lines at this time. Redhall 'box had been closed by this time, although in its' later years I think the 'box was only open during peak times,as opposed to Marshmoor being open 24/7 only being switched out 6am-6pm on Sunday's. I can remember working with Stan Colbert at BN one day on early turn, and he told me was doing some overtime that same evening 6 - 9pm at Redhall. I don't know how he would have got there as he didn't have his own transport ! ....that was late '62/early '63 so the 'box was still open then.

Cheers, Eddie.

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey,
When I was at Marshmoor in the mid 60's I'm pretty sure we worked Absolute Block with Potters Bar on both the down lines and both the up lines. On both the up slow and up fast there were Intermediate Block Home signals located at Hawkeshead where the up slow to up fast turnout used to be. Between Marshmoors' up home signals and the IBH's were two further sets of signals acting as distant signals for the IBH's.

What i remember about Marshmoor (box) Eddie from about the summer/autumn of 1967 when i first saw the box was that the Down slow line between Potters Bar & Marshmoor was worked under Absolute block but from around 1970 a IBH (Intermediate Block Home) x2 aspect colour light signal was located on the Down slow line at Hawkshead opposite a Down fast line auto-signal (that acted as Marshmoor's outter colour light distant signal) and it was still Absolute block working between Potters Bar & Marshmoor (s/boxes) over the Down slow line the other three lines the Down fast, Up fast & Up slow lines were all worked under TCB (Track Circuit Block) between Potters Bar & Marshmoor (s/boxes).

Mickey

[R. pike]

[StevieG]

Heres several picures taken of the railway at Marshmoor at different times and features a close up picture of Marshmoor box taken in 1967 and features signalman Alec Temple who may have retired in 1967?

http://www.brookmans.com/history/pictures/ch12.shtml

Did you know, Mickey, they also have a July '67 shot of the inside of the box, with Alec, in their chapter titled "Transport" ? -

- http://www.brookmans.com/history/pictures/ch2.shtml -

- Towards the right-hand end of the block shelf, can be seen, then, a 'non-pegger' Block (Down Fast to Hatfield No.1), a row of three bells, which I think were the DF bells to Hatfield 1 and from Potters Bar, and the Down Slow bell to Hatfield 1, with what is at the far end being a little unclear - I think there's a BR plastic B&W 2-dial 'Block', (which is what I was used to in 1968 and beyond, for the Down Slow from PB and to H.1), but which appears in that photo to have paper or card taped round it perhaps indicating 'not yet in use' - what's just beyond that, I find hard to tell except that I think there's another GN bell at the far end.

[Mickey]

Did you know, Mickey, they also have a July '67 shot of the inside of the box, with Alec, in their chapter titled "Transport" ?

Yeah I have seen it before Stevie but thanks for posting it again.

I presume that the Down fast & Down slow lines co-acting arms home signals with Redhall's distant signals below carried on the 2 separate tall concrete posts (just south of the road overbridge) were both abolished and replaced by the bracket signal post carrying the Down fast & Down slow home signals when Redhall (box) was permanently closed circa 1964/65?.

"I always liked Marshmoor box and the job even though for a signalman there wasn't much to it, to be honest I wouldn't have minded being a regular signalman at the box".

Micky

[StevieG]

Hi Mickey,
" When I was at Marshmoor in the mid 60's I'm pretty sure we worked Absolute Block with Potters Bar on both the down lines and both the up lines. On both the up slow and up fast there were Intermediate Block Home signals located at Hawkeshead where the up slow to up fast turnout used to be. Between Marshmoors' up home signals and the IBH's were two further sets of signals acting as distant signals for the IBH's. .... "

Can't categorically dispute this Eddie, but I never heard anyone refer to AB working between the Marshmoor Up IB signals and PB (except when Marshmoor was switched out of course), and you'll see from the diagram that R.Pike has posted that when Marshmoor's full crossover was still in (and there was the lever No.3 Up Slow Starter by the overbridge), that the Up lines track-circuiting already went right through to PB [even when the US from Hawkshead could still be used Permissively for non-passenger trains - see the lever No.A position-light Call-On below M4 signal (wonder how that section was actually worked Absolutely/Permissively then?) ] ; Come to think of it, M4 and M9 always seemed to me rather strange - IB Homes normally lead into a plain-track Block section, not through and over a 'turn-out' crossover.
Also see the full T-C'g on the DF all the way through from PB to Marshmoor, including red/green 'Auto' signal M28 at Hawkshead, and a TCB-type Overlap past M's No.22 Home, right through the long crossover, which I've always believed was always the reason that that DF Auto signal could be put to Danger by lever 28 - surely the crossover point levers would have been locked while 28 was Reverse.

" .... I can remember working with Stan Colbert at BN one day on early turn, .... "

Do you mean 'working with' as in you were at Marshmoor and working a single block section to Barnet North Eddie, or you were at BN where Stan was or somewhere else nearby, and that's how you were working with him?

[StevieG]

" .... I presume that the Down fast & Down slow lines co-acting arms home signals with Redhall's distant signals below carried on the 2 separate tall concrete posts (just south of the road overbridge) were both abolished and replaced by the bracket signal post carrying the Down fast & Down slow home signals when Redhall (box) was permanently closed circa 1964/65?. .... "

Can't have been before RA closed Mickey, but whether it was 'when', or sometime afterwards, I don't know.
There's a B&W photo of a pair of tall, concrete co-actors with 'lower' distants only under the bottom arms, in front of an overbridge, in Ian Allan's British Railway Signalling (Kitchenside & Williams), 1st edition (1963) [ and I think at least the 2nd edition as well], which, though their location is not identified, completely 'fit the bill' to have been Marshmoor's Down Homes.

[Mickey]

" .... I presume that the Down fast & Down slow lines co-acting arms home signals with Redhall's distant signals below carried on the 2 separate tall concrete posts (just south of the road overbridge) were both abolished and replaced by the bracket signal post carrying the Down fast & Down slow home signals when Redhall (box) was permanently closed circa 1964/65?. .... "

Can't have been before RA closed Mickey, but whether it was 'when', or sometime afterwards, I don't know.
There's a B&W photo of a pair of tall, concrete co-actors with 'lower' distants only under the bottom arms, in front of an overbridge, in Ian Allan's British Railway Signalling (Kitchenside & Williams), 1st edition (1963) [ and I think at least the 2nd edition as well], which, though their location is not identified, completely 'fit the bill' to have been Marshmoor's Down Homes.

Thats what I meant Stevie were those two tall concrete signal posts that carried Marshmoor's Down fast & Down slow co-acting home signals with Redhall's distant signals below them were they abolished and replaced with the bracket signal post that carried Marshmoor's Down fast & Down slow home signals on permanent closure of Redhall (box) i'm assuming thats what happened but it's just a guess?.

Also I didn't know that Marshmoor could switch-out obviously it must have had a closing switch then?.

If Marshmoor was 'switched out' it must have been a pretty rare event because I don't think I ever remember seeing it switched out?. So if Marshmoor was switched out Hatfield No.1 (box) would have worked Absolute block on all running lines with Potters Bar that was a fairly long block section in reality especially over the slow lines with the station stop at Brookmans Park inbetween?.

Mickey

[StevieG]

.... Also I didn't know that Marshmoor could switch-out obviously it must have had a closing switch then?.

If Marshmoor was 'switched out' it must have been a pretty rare event because I don't think I ever remember seeing it switched out?. So if Marshmoor was switched out Hatfield No.1 (box) would have worked Absolute block on all running lines with Potters Bar that was a fairly long block section in reality especially over the slow lines with the station stop at Brookmans Park inbetween?. "

Yes, quite right (in about 1968 anyway - couldn't say about earlier than that): Two Block Switches in fact (possibly because Hat.1 - Potters Bar was such a long way, as you said Mickey : And the two weren't even 'Downs' and 'Ups' as might be expected, like elsewhere (e.g. Oakleigh Park), but were 'Fasts' and 'Slows'.

And Potters Bar panel had, all built-in, not only illuminating 'non-pegger' green and red Block indications ('Normal' was indicated by no light) always in use for the Down Slow northwards, but also another the same for the Down Fast, and, for both Up lines, 'pegger' commutators and R/G Block indications (and time-delay Line Clear Cancel plungers as part of the 'Welwyn' Controls instead of having to 'go round the handle') - the latter three only coming into use, communicating with Hatfield No.1, when Marshmoor switched out on the lines concerned : PB already only had bell communications for signalling all four lines northwards at all times, so it was only the three 'Blocks' that went in and out of operation according to whether or not Marshmoor was in-switch.

I was at M a couple of times with NEG when we switched out, so I think that by then, there was a rostered closure period - perhaps the late Sat. night - Sun. early morn. shift?
It was quite odd to briefly be still 'open' on, say the Slows, while 'out' on the 'Fasts' (or vice versa), when something on the latter could rush by, no longer anything to do with you (apart from emergencies of course).

Can't recall for sure now, but I don't think there was a way of switching off the bright, illuminated red-or-yellow / green signal repeaters, so they probably kept working, with the signals dropping back to Caution or Danger as trains passed them as usual, but clearing again when the requisite track circuits went clear again.

[Mickey]

Interesting that Stevie about Marshmoor having the 2 separate closing switches for the fast lines & slow lines and yes it must have seemed odd to be say switched 'in' on the slow lines but switched 'out' on the fast lines and then to have a train rush passed on the fast lines when the signalman had nothing really to do with the signalling of it under 'normal' working conditions?.

No wonder I never saw Marshmoor 'switched out' if it closed out say between 22:00-06:00hrs on Saturday nights/Sunday mornings I was never around that area at that time of a Saturday night or early Sunday morning.

It's funny what you forget as the years pass by it wasn't until I looked at RPs Marshmoor track diagram again that I remember that 'turn out' from the Up slow to Up fast line at Hawkshead i had forgotten about that connection?.

There was a lot more to Marshmoor than first meets the eye even in it's later years.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

Several other boxes on the GN had two block switches - and the boxes I worked on the Midland all did (some had three). It made it much easier to switch out than having to wait for clear blocks on all roads. Otherise you neded to grow a lot of arms to send 5-5-7 on four bells and 7-5-5 on four others almost simultaneously!

John

[Mickey]

Thinking about it again I do actually recall back in the late 1960s & early 1970s usually riding on DMUs along the Up slow line and being stopped at that Up slow line colour light signal with the right-hand feathers at Hawkshead (south of Brookmans Park station) and waiting to be 'turned out' Up the fast line behind a Up express or a Up Cambridge buffet.

Theres a nice colour film sequence shot at Hawkshead circa 1969/70 that is featured in Diesels & Electrics On 35mm Vol.1 & Vol.2 video & dvd that was filmed from the Down side embankment that overlooks the main line at that point. The amateur cameraman captures some nice 'run bys' of Deltics & Brush type 4s on Up & Down expresses hauling maroon & blue/grey B.R.Mk1 coaching stock and blue/grey B.R.Mk2 coaching stock heading along the fast lines either northwards towards Brookmans Park station seen in the distance or southwards towards the Potters Bar direction and along with some shots of Brush type 2s hauling blue 'block ender' coaching stock and a couple of Craven DMUs as well seen charging along the fast lines on a cold but sunny looking day it's a very nostalgic and a nice piece of film footage.

Mickey