Famous photo in new KX book

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Tim Watson
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Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:13 am

I have recently purchased the new version of the KX book by the late Paul Anderson. It certainly augments the old version very well and adds some new views to our extensive library of the area (essential for our Copenhagen Fields model). As expected this famous photo is re-used:

Image

The caption says that it is the pair of four pm. KX departures of the Coronation and Leeds expresses heading North through Belle Isle out of Gasworks tunnel, a caption also given in Peter Townend's 'Top Shed'. At face value this seems OK, until you study the track in the picture. The foreground empty track is the Down Relief with the crossing onto the ramp line into the Goods Yard running behind the photographer. The A3 is therefore on the Down Main, leaving the western bore of Gasworks tunnel. The A4 should therefore be leaving the centre bore of Gasworks, if the caption is to be believed: this would be heading straight into the path of the A3, as can be deduced by looking at the model photo below, where the original photographer would be placed at the bottom end of the retaining wall of the ramp line into the yard (I know it's dodgy to reference models, but our trackwork in the trough is accurate).

Image

I think it more likely that the A4 is actually on the Up Line into the centre bore of Gasworks tunnel, reversing down to KX, even though this is belied by the head code. The smoke / steam could easily have been produced by the use of the blower. I think that the photo may have been posed for publicity purposes. Any body got any other views on this?

Incidentally, Copenhagen Fields will be on display at the MRC Open Day at Keen House on the 20th November - where you will be able to see it and the following weekend at the Warley NEC show - where seeing it may be more problematic. The Goods Yard has made quite a bit of progress of late, as indeed has the south end in general. We now need to make a load of signals. Does anyone have CLEAR pictures of the pre 1932 GN gantries just to the North of Gasworks tunnel? The pictures I have are usually wreathed in smoke.

Tim

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R. pike
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by R. pike » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:40 pm

The diagram is not correct for the period but not much had changed...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/15990737357/

I would say this is "i'll phone me brother" moment*

* = part of a punchline from a joke i'm sure every one has heard? I can post it if not.

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Hatfield Shed » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:33 pm

From the track plan in GNR Engine Sheds vol 1 (Griffiths and Hooper) dated 1935 the A4 is on the down main; and the A3 on Down Main 2 which line has connections to both down main and down slow. In Townend's book the reproduction of the photo makes it clear that the A3 is on the left road of points which will take it to the down slow, exactly as drawn in the track plan. These points don't appear to exist on the model, presumably based on a different track plan? (I hasten to add I am no expert on the track arrangements in this location, but the 1935 drawing accords with the photo caption and makes the manouevre safe, while the model track layout implies imminent collision if the photo caption is correct...)

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:50 pm

Thanks for the comments. Our track plan is from an LNER track drawing (not sure if it is dated) that we had enlarged directly to 2mm scale. I do now recollect discussions elsewhere that described the extra crossover, so that would account for the anomaly. The plan we have is similar to this diagram that is copied from the original Irwell KX book, which shiws the GN signalling arrangements.

Imagej

We are modelling Belle Isle Down box even though our plan does not show it. The associated signals will be quite entertaining to make.

Tim

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:29 am

Wow that layout looks really great well done!!. The Belle Isle/Copenhagen Junction/Goods And Mineral Junction & Five Arch area was one of my favourite parts of the G.N. I would love to have that as my layout although I would probably base the layout on the years between 1969-1975 (Goods And Mineral Junction box closed in late 1975) but thats just my era that I remember better but a very well done all the same it really does look like the real thing!!.

Mickey

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by robertcwp » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:11 pm

This is a later photo which shows the track layout as it was in 1963: https://flic.kr/p/aKdMdg

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by R. pike » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:13 pm

A little earlier with this diagram..
october2008 073.JPG

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:03 am

It's all down to the crossing next to 105, which we don't have. Shame in a way, but at least we can put in BID box; thanks for the photos and diagram. We have started to put in the civils for the ramp line to the Caledonian Goods and Coal Yard (currently in red oxide primer), which includes the base for Goods and Mineral Junction box. Does any one know when this box was extended? Well before 1930 I suspect.

Image

Our trackwork in the GY is heavily adapted for the purposes of making the layout work as an exhibition piece and also because we are greatly forshortened in the E-W direction (York Way is further forward than it should be). Incidentally, there is a superb monograph recently published on the archaeology of the KX Goods Shed:
"An Immense and Exceedingky Commodious Goods Station' by Rebecca Haslam & Guy Thompson. The next two editions will probably be even more useful to us.

Tim

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by R. pike » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:19 pm

A magnificent model. I'd like to see it some time. There was an unusual arrangement at G&M where freights didn't start until the distant was off i believe..

G&M..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/16982372247/

and 5AB..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/15982167979/

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:22 am

Tim your layout of Belle Isle & Goods And Mineral Junction is mouth watering totally 100% MOUTH WATERING!!!.

"I always fancied being a signalman at Goods And Mineral Junction (box) it was one of my all time favourite GN boxes and jobs and I would have loved to have worked it in real life".

10/10 top marks to you Tim and the rest of the guy's involved in the project, well done!!.

Mickey

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by swhite01 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:48 pm

I have a 1933 Drawing showing the running lines between the tunnels, I posted some images on the thread re Caledonian Goods Yard some years back this link is to my Flickr page where there a couple of images of the drawing :- https://www.flickr.com/photos/8336963@N ... 988925741/
I am away on business at the moment but when I return I will have a further look at the drawing and photograph the southern part of the layout.

Steve

http://WWW.GNRSociety.com

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:08 pm

Thanks Steve. That 1933 date would tally with BID box not being present. That is the drawing we enlarged to make our track plan, so we have the complete area covered.

Tim

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:15 am

We had our last working session before the Warley show today. Mike Randall has roughed out the Goods & Mineral SB: this is very much the centrepiece of Belle Isle.

Image

Making blocks of buildings is a useful way of checking shape / space requirements. There is no question that Goods & Mineral Jcn. box will need a fully detailed interior, because you will be able to see right into it from the front: anyone got any photos of the interior? Would probably benefit from some etches, especially for the ladder banisters. We should have the hand made lattice girder work in time for Warley, assuming Mike's eyesight holds up.

Image

Image

Maybe I should start a CF thread in the modelling section...


Tim

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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:21 am

I see that the old plan that you've posted herein Tim Watson, does show Belle Isle Down Box, which I seem to think was closed in 1935 (with placement of control of its points connections, and associated new colour-light signals, under the 1932 Kings Cross Box), but can't be certain of that date.
I am fairly sure from a source long past, that along with introduction of the additional Down Main 2 - Down Slow crossover [ KX box's No.172 (later, re-numbered 152 by the time Copenhagen Box was abolished in the 1960s) ], the removal of BID box allowed the adjacent portion of Down Main No.1 to be slewed eastwards, closer to the Up Relief, thus creating parallel clearances that allowed trains to simultaneously safely run DM1 - DM, and DM2 - DS (exactly as the 'Famous photo' shows) through the new crossover.

So the Copenhagen Fields track layout as in the posted photograph of it, replicates the layout as it was before these changes.
Last edited by StevieG on Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:32 am

Tim Watson wrote:There is no question that Goods & Mineral Jcn. box will need a fully detailed interior, because you will be able to see right into it from the front.
Tim if possible can you illuminate the interior of the box and I don't mean like a 'lighthouse' but usually a solitary light bulb was left switched on over the train register book at night towards the centre of the box when looking at the box face on and was clearly seen from passing trains in Belle Isle, it would just gives it a nice little authentic touch. :wink:

Mickey

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