Famous photo in new KX book

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Tim Watson
LNER N2 0-6-2T
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:31 pm

That had certainly crossed my mind Mickey. When I made Copenhagen Junction Box I considered illuminating it, but down in the trough it wouldn't show as you are looking down on it. G&M is much higher and very easily visible from a normal viewing angle.

Tim

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:10 pm

If possible Tim it would be good if you can incorporate a light in the box it would give the box a 'live' feel especially if you darken the layout.

Again thats a great layout you and your other co-worker's have created you've certainly captured 'the feel' of the area without a doubt, well done again.

Mickey

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StevieG
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:05 am

Will someone really have the patience to fit G&M out with its 100 levers Tim ? :)
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:55 pm

A view of the less photographed 'otherside' of Goods And Mineral Junction box looking in a southwest direction towards Five Arch & Kings Cross Goods yard in the far distance. The line curving off to the right is the bottom of the Kings Cross Incline. The three bores of Copenhagen tunnel are behind the photographer.

Photograph taken by G.L.Pring.

Mickey
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Last edited by Mickey on Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tim Watson
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:41 pm

Thanks Mickey. George took some excellent pictures of the GN. He was a great loss.

Tim

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:50 am

Goods And Mineral Junction was one of the taller boxes on the GN main line between Kings Cross & Doncaster along with Harringay Up Goods, Ferme Park South Down, maybe Hatfield No.1(?) Hitchin Yard, Crescent Junction, Retford North and Black Carr Junction.

Finsbury Park 5 was a tall box beside the Down fast line but 'normal' size beside the Down slow no.1 line.

As Stevie posted the box contained a 100 lever frame with 1-spare lever no.64 in 1967.

Not sure of the actual opening date of the box possibly during the early 1890s I presume?. The box closed either late Sept 1975 or Oct 1975?.


Mickey

Dave Cockle
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Dave Cockle » Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:27 pm

Micky,

Finsbury Park No 5 opened in 1888.

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StevieG
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:07 pm

Mickey wrote: " .... As Stevie posted the box contained a 100 lever frame with 1-spare lever no.64 in 1967. .... "
Mickey
Did you perhaps mean 1957 Mickey ?
Around 14-16 levers in all were involved in the moves either from Top Shed and/or over 'the Lickey' (the steep connection from Goods & Mineral's Eastern Route down to the Down Slow under Copenhagen Jn.), both parts over which locos from Top Shed for KX station passed to get back to Belle Isle Up box's "Up South London Goods" line and on into the station.
I don't know exactly when those levers' equipment had been done away with, but my first visit to G&M was no later than 1968, and at that time it was evident that those levers, by then Spares, had not been very recently made so (luckily all their badges had just been turned round, so were easily taken off, descriptions copied, and put back).
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:00 pm

StevieG wrote:
Mickey wrote: " .... As Stevie posted the box contained a 100 lever frame with 1-spare lever no.64 in 1967. .... "
Mickey
Did you perhaps mean 1957 Mickey?.
The 1967 date is from another website showing a hand drawing of Goods And Mineral Junction's track layout and dated 1967 although with regards to that date (1967) I must admit it did cross my mind that 99 still working levers in a 100 lever frame in 1967 did seem like a lot of working levers still to be in use at that late stage in time?.

Mickey

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:10 pm

StevieG wrote:Around 14-16 levers in all were involved in the moves either from Top Shed and/or over 'the Lickey' (the steep connection from Goods & Mineral's Eastern Route down to the Down Slow under Copenhagen Jn.), both parts over which locos from Top Shed for KX station passed to get back to Belle Isle Up box's "Up South London Goods" line and on into the station.
Ah yes Stevie 14-16 lever movements on the frame was a lot of 'lever bashing' for one movement but it would keep you fit!!.

Yes some of the old Kings Cross Incline was indeed at 1 in 37 rising in the westward direction towards the North London line at Maiden Lane especially between Goods And Mineral Junction and the approach to the Midland railway bridge into st Pancras and was the exact same gradient as 'the Lickey' between Bromsgrove & Blackwell but obviously not for the same distance as the Lickey incline.

It was always interesting when riding on a passenger train passing through Belle Isle either into or out of Kings Cross because your eye would always be drawn to look up at Goods And Mineral Junction box and also to observe the signals especially those signals on the two main gantries with one gantry carrying 6 miniture arms on the No.1 Goods Arrival road, No.2 Goods Arrival road & Shunt road & the other gantry carrying 8 arms= 4 full-size + 4 miniture arms on the Goods Departure road, Coal Arrival road & Coal Departure road. Most usually by the late 1960s until the end in 1975 usually all 'the boards' on those two gantries would be at danger but sometimes on the odd rare occasion one of those signal arms would be off and you would wonder to yourself?. I wonder whats going on up there in the Goods yard??. lol ha ha ha...

Mickey

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StevieG
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:06 am

StevieG wrote:
Mickey wrote: " Ah yes Stevie 14-16 lever movements on the frame was a lot of 'lever bashing' for one movement but it would keep you fit!!. .... "
You may be misunderstanding a little Mickey. ...
.... etc.

(This was an erroneous post, made in error part-way through being written. The rest has been deleted, and the full post appears below, following Mickey's reply to this deleted partial post.)
Last edited by StevieG on Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:36 am

lol ha ha ha... I thought you mite pick me up Stevie (and rightly so) on the actual amount of signal arms that were left on those two separate gantries circa 1968 and beyond?. I was looking at the 1967 (or it should it be dated 1957?) hand drawing of the Goods And Mineral Junction layout because I couldn't actually remember which arm(s) had been removed by 1968?. With regards to the gantry with the all miniture arms yes that was my mistake I actually counted 7 but posted 6 for some reason but your correct there was only 4 by about 1968 onwards and with regards to the other gantry with some full-size arms and some with miniture arms on it I couldn't actually remember which signal arms had been removed by 1968 either?.

Mickey

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StevieG
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:45 am

Mickey wrote: " Ah yes Stevie 14-16 lever movements on the frame was a lot of 'lever bashing' for one movement but it would keep you fit!!. .... "
You may be misunderstanding me a little Mickey.
My "Around 14-16 levers in all were involved in the moves either from Top Shed and/or over 'the Lickey' (the steep connection from Goods & Mineral's Eastern Route down to the Down Slow under Copenhagen Jn.)" were not for any one movement, but as I tried to describe, were the total number of levers involved in working any of the points and signals for the various routes to/from Top Shed or over that 'Lickey' connection.

But having said that, some of the moves might have involved that many, or less, or possibly more, lever movements.

This is because, apart from a list of booked arrivals and departures, plus any circulars of amendments and telephoned Control Office changes to them, the G&M signalman mostly responded to immediate shunt requests from the Five Arch Bridge cabin pointsman and the Shunter-in-charge of the 'North Yard' (Nos.3-8 & 10-12 Arch Sidings).

So, when I came to know the box in '68 /'69, because of the variety of different routes/moves that were dealt with, particularly the great variation of out-and-back shunts ; and that the order of arrivals, departures and shunts could change enormously day-to-day and hour-by-hour, there was by then (unlike most 'main line' boxes where points and facing point locks tended to be Normalised after any use in Reverse), a practice at G&M of leaving points/FPLs in their positions of last use, in case the next move needed any of them in the same position : So their positions only got altered when a subsequent move definitely required that.

When Top Shed was still operational and the Goods Yard busier anyway, I would've thought the same sort of practice was used then as well ; So the only way to state that a particular move from 'y' to 'z" required 'x' number of lever movements, would be to assume a particular state of the whole frame's levers to start with - probably that they were all Normal, which was highly unlikely in practice.
Mickey wrote: .... when riding on a passenger train passing through Belle Isle .... your eye would always be drawn to look up at Goods And Mineral Junction box and also to observe the signals especially those signals on the two main gantries with one gantry carrying 6 miniture arms on the No.1 Goods Arrival road, No.2 Goods Arrival road & Shunt road & the other gantry carrying 8 arms= 4 full-size + 4 miniture arms on the Goods Departure road, Coal Arrival road & Coal Departure road. .... "
If it's of any interest to you, when you saw that many arms on those two large bracket signals (actually the first one had 7, not 6, arms; there were 3 for the Shunt road), it would've been before the connections to/from Top Shed and for 'the Lickey' down to Copenhagen box were abolished.
After they'd gone that first bracket had only 4 miniature arms and the second was left with only 3 full-size and 2 miniatures.
Last edited by StevieG on Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
BZOH

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StevieG
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Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:49 am

Sorry Mickey, I've just noticed that it looks like I posted an unfinished version of my reply at 23:06 when I meant to only 'Preview' it.

I've now just posted the finished version.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:07 am

StevieG wrote:You may be misunderstanding me a little Mickey.
My "Around 14-16 levers in all were involved in the moves either from Top Shed and/or over 'the Lickey' (the steep connection from Goods & Mineral's Eastern Route down to the Down Slow under Copenhagen Jn.)" were not for any one movement, but as I tried to describe, were the total number of levers involved in working any of the points and signals for the various routes to/from Top Shed or over that 'Lickey' connection.

But having said that, some of the moves might have involved that many, or less, or possibly more, lever movements.
Ok I understand now Stevie, also having previously said that 14-16 lever movements was a lot of 'lever bashing' there was 18 lever movements involved everytime when crossing a terminating train at Welwyn Garden City from the Down slow line platform across to the Up slow line platform and if the train was going into the 'back platform' (the old no.4 platform but these days re-numbered no.1 platform) that was a further 6 lever movements as well.
StevieG wrote:If it's of any interest to you, when you saw that many arms on those two large bracket signals actually (the first one had 7, not 6, arms; there were 3 for the Shunt road), it would've been before the connections to/from Top Shed and for 'the Lickey' down to Copenhagen box were abolished.
After they'd gone that first bracket had only 4 miniature arms and the second was left with only 3 full-size and 2 miniatures.
I was a bit to quick Stevie I posted my text with regards to how many signal arms there was left above your last post lol ha ha ha...
Yes by 1967-68 onwards there was only 4 miniture arms left out of original total of 7 miniture arms on the No.1 Goods Arrival road, No.2 Goods Arrival road & Shunt road gantry and on the Goods Departure road, Coal Arrival road & Coal Departure road gantry with it's mixture of full-size & miniture arms out of an original total of 8 arms several arms (3) had also been removed as well by 1967-68.

Mickey

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