Famous photo in new KX book

This forum is for the discussion of the LNER, its constituent companies, and their histories.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

User avatar
will5210
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 215
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:16 pm
Location: Nr Blackpool

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by will5210 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm

Tim Watson wrote: Maybe I should start a CF thread in the modelling section...


Tim

Yes please!
Will

My LNER 1930s West Highland Workbench
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9293

My Blog
http://westhighlandmodelling.wordpress.com/

User avatar
manna
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3201
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:56 am
Location: Booborowie. S. Aust

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by manna » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:24 pm

G'day Gents

I'll second that. Been following C F, for many years, when there was coverage in the railway press, sometimes there was a gap of a few years between updates, so having a thread on here would be wonderful. YES.

manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.

User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:28 am

Mickey wrote:A view of the less photographed 'otherside' of Goods And Mineral Junction box looking in a southwest direction towards Five Arch & Kings Cross Goods yard in the far distance. The line curving off to the right is the bottom of the Kings Cross Incline. The three bores of Copenhagen tunnel are behind the photographer.

Photograph taken by G.L.Pring.

Mickey
Just a small aside note Mickey.
Although I remember that perspective, never before seen a photo of it : How clearly it shows the width of the Caledonian Coal yard line's bridge over the N.L. Incline line, showing how the incline had been, at one time, double-tracked.
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:25 am

I suppose the Midland Railway equivalent to Goods And Mineral Junction s/box was st Pauls Road Junction s/box (not as impressive as Goods And Mineral Junction box though) and was located on the otherside of the Top Shed area just a bit further north on the Midland main line.

I remember seeing the box (from the street overbridge) in 1970 and it was an extremely narrow Midland Railway box that was 'squeezed in between' the Down Main line and the Up Goods line and only controlled the Goods lines and access to & from the nearby sidings. The box contained a 36 lever frame and I am guessing that with any lever that was reversed in the lever frame it would only leave a very narrow space between the lever handle and the box wall for the signalman to walk through thats how narrow the box was.

Goods And Mineral Junction closed in October 1975 and st Pauls Road Goods Junction closed in December 1975.

The link below shows the area of st Pauls Road Goods Junction but unfortunately not the box other than the roof which was BIGGER than the width of the actual box!!.

Mickey

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mystery ... g=Y-88-16A
Last edited by Mickey on Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

S&T
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by S&T » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:16 pm

Mickey wrote:A view of the less photographed 'otherside' of Goods And Mineral Junction box looking in a southwest direction towards Five Arch & Kings Cross Goods yard in the far distance. The line curving off to the right is the bottom of the Kings Cross Incline. The three bores of Copenhagen tunnel are behind the photographer.

Photograph taken by G.L.Pring.

Mickey
Very interesting thread.....

This picture brings back memories of a minor incident around the mid 80s (I think). The KX S&T team were called to check for track cabling damage after a Class 08 Shunter had derailed across the points in this area (off the curving incline I think). Amazing to watch the re-railing team in operation.

Sorry if off topic.....just memories.
S&T

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:36 pm

S&T wrote:Very interesting thread.....

This picture brings back memories of a minor incident around the mid 80s (I think). The KX S&T team were called to check for track cabling damage after a Class 08 Shunter had derailed across the points in this area (off the curving incline I think). Amazing to watch the re-railing team in operation.
The immediate area of the former Goods And Mineral Junction s/box was a shadow of it's former self after late 1975 when Goods And Mineral Junction s/box was closed and the area then came under the control of Kings Cross Freight Terminal Junction shunting panel until that place it's self was closed in 1986 from which time the entrance & exit to Kings Cross Goods yard and the points leading to & from the Kings Cross Incline were transferred onto Kings Cross PSB.

When I worked Camden Road s/box on the North London line on the relief 1988-1990 and regular 1992-2004 I recall that there was a small number of derailments at the bottom of the Kings Cross Incline usually involving the stone empties originating from the stone depot in Kings Cross Goods yard especially during the late 1980s & early 1990s.

The Camden Road signalman use to control the slot or release to the Kings Cross Incline much to the annoyance of some of the Kings Cross signalling staff but from about 2004 the release for the Incline was given over to the signallers in Kings Cross PSB instead.

Mickey

Tim Watson
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:37 am

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Tim Watson » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:18 pm

I was (unofficially) in the yard in the early 90's doing a photo survey for the layout with an S&T engineer friend. I was nearly run over by one of the stealthy new 91s that were being tested on the mainline and had an electrified loop laid into the yard. Useful photos tho'.

I am looking to make a trompe-oeil of the old Midland Roundhouse for the scene behind the York Way viaduct. I am aware of the published images in the GN shed book and Top Shed. Are there any others? Anyone hazard a guess as to the colour of the bricks used? I'm inclined towards red.

Tim

Mickey

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:56 pm

Back to Belle Isle...

As previously mentioned before on another topic thread on this forum with regards to signalmen and other railway staff trying to reach either Belle Isle Up & Down and Copenhagen Junction s/boxes it would obviously involved having to cross several open running lines to reach them a situation that nowadays probably wouldn't be acceptable and a 'safe walking route' to and from all three s/boxes that didn't involve crossing any running lines would have to be provided.

Mickey

rockinjohn
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by rockinjohn » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:47 am

Hi looked everywhere for information on "that"incline great picture,I worked for Vidor batteries out of a railway served siding warehouse @ the top of the incline(midland serviced I assume)in the early sixties,and was always curious having walked up &down it in my meal breaks, just to see where it started and ended,in two years I never saw a movement in daylight hours& some early evenings on that incline up or down,what did traverse it around the 50's&60's anyone?I lived on the Holloway UP"Ramp" incline in Ashburton Grove and apart from light engine movements, more when the Clarence Yard MPD opened,would have my view blocked by a empty parcels train that sat there from lunchtime until late afternoon the loco running round after propelling it up the incline from Clarence Yard,Mention has been made that thru South London freights would traverse this way, but living alongside from 1947-1967 this was never ever witnessed by myself maybe in later years it could have occurred? but by then goods trains ex.Ferme Park had drastically reduced.

User avatar
thesignalman
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:37 pm

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by thesignalman » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:28 am

StevieG wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:21 am
I see that the old plan that you've posted herein Tim Watson, does show Belle Isle Down Box, which I seem to think was closed in 1935 (with placement of control of its points connections, and associated new colour-light signals, under the 1932 Kings Cross Box), but can't be certain of that date.
I am fairly sure from a source long past, that along with introduction of the additional Down Main 2 - Down Slow crossover [ KX box's No.172 (later, re-numbered 152 by the time Copenhagen Box was abolished in the 1960s) ], the removal of BID box allowed the adjacent portion of Down Main No.1 to be slewed eastwards, closer to the Up Relief, thus creating parallel clearances that allowed trains to simultaneously safely run DM1 - DM, and DM2 - DS (exactly as the 'Famous photo' shows) through the new crossover.
You are right with the date, Stevie - 28/4/35 to be exact.

I agree that the view is possible, although I think it must be photographer's luck rather than being posed because the trains will have come through different tunnel bores.

I presume it is confirmed there were simultaneous 4 pm departures in the timetable? It seems an odd way to time things. In later times the only time I know of simultaneous express departures were when 4472 did a simultaneous departure at 10 am, Going Slow Line the speed limits were so cruel that it was about 10 minutes behind the Deltic in time by the time it went under the footbridge at Oakleigh Park where I was watching and photographing. So there is really no benefit, one of those two steam trains would have been better timed at 4 5 pm Fast Line.

Incidentally, the signalling was arranged so that trains would never be stopped at the signals in the tunnels, so you couldn't hold one of those two trains in the tunnel to follow the other Fast Line from Belle Isle.

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: http://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling photographs: http://shop.studio433.co.uk/

Mickey
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:21 pm

thesignalman wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:28 am
Incidentally, the signalling was arranged so that trains would never be stopped at the signals in the tunnels, so you couldn't hold one of those two trains in the tunnel to follow the other Fast Line from Belle Isle.
So was 'double-block working' in force between Kings Cross-Belle Isle Down and Copenhagen Junction boxes meaning before a train was accepted by Belle Isle Down box from Kings Cross over any of the Down lines it was first offered on forward and was accepted by Copenhagen Junction box before Belle Isle Down accepted it from Kings Cross?.

Also I presume Belle Isle Down box was a rather unhealthy box to work at being as it was situated quite close to the northern portals of Gasworks tunnel with virtually continuous thick loco coal smoke blowing through the tunnel 24/7?. Gasworks tunnel The tunnel that never stopped smoking no doubt the grubby dirty box windows were usually kept well and truly closed.

User avatar
thesignalman
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:37 pm

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by thesignalman » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:26 am

Micky wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:21 pm
So was 'double-block working' in force between Kings Cross-Belle Isle Down and Copenhagen Junction boxes meaning before a train was accepted by Belle Isle Down box from Kings Cross over any of the Down lines it was first offered on forward and was accepted by Copenhagen Junction box before Belle Isle Down accepted it from Kings Cross?.
Um well, I know I am old but not old enough to remember those days, Micky. But I suspect working was something along those lines.

Best regards,

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: http://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling photographs: http://shop.studio433.co.uk/

User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:02 pm

Further to John's comment in reply to you Micky, with which I agree, in the late-'60s, post-abolition of both Belle Isles, and Copenhagen Jn. boxes (and from diagrams I've seen of after only BID box gone, with KX working to Copenhagen and Goods & Mineral boxes on the Down lines, it looked the same then), the three KC signals [ from memory 164 (Down Main No.1), 173 (DM2) & 194 (D.Slow), 3-aspect ground-mounted, with red at the bottom ] at the north end portals of Gasworks Tunnel had to be cleared before the (twin-headed) 165, 174 or 195 at the south end portals of the tunnel could show any main Proceed aspect : And that was why (and how) route indicating for KCs Down roads' points at Belle Isle was given by the South end signals, whose heads to the passenger lines, although having the usual four lenses (but with them being, top-to-bottom, green, yellow, red, yellow; normal for the early 1930s), could not show single yellow, and the signals at the north end just gave the relevant aspect (no route indic'n).
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \

Mickey
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by Mickey » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:31 am

Yes I remember those ground mounted colour light signals at the north end of Gasworks tunnel Stevie.

A question about the signalling in Belle Isle that has occurred to me in the last couple of days?.

Why wasn't Belle Isle Up box closed at the same time as Belle Isle Down box?. Was it to keep the Absolute block section as 'short' as possible between Belle Isle Up and Kings Cross rather than extending it back on the Up lines from Kings Cross back to Holloway South Up during the 1930s & 1940s?.

User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: Famous photo in new KX book

Post by StevieG » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:51 pm

Can only think that it was owing to the LEs from Top Shed going into 'the Cross' Micky.
Until the shed closed BI Up controlled them coming off the 'engine line' (as it may have been regarded; officially the Up South London Goods; so I presume at one time goods trips from 'the Goods Yard' to the Southern also went that way), and onto the Up Relief, Main, or Slow. Copenhagen could let in as many 'trains' as there was room for if there were any delays in KC agreeing that they could leave Belle Isle and come into the station, so perhaps it was thought best to keep BIU so the signalman could keep 'eyes on' them individually. Once Top Shed had closed I think BIU (and Copenhagen, just as involved in the LE movements) were living on borrowed time.
I don't know precisely how the Up roads were worked between BIU and KC, other than that BIU didn't control UR Line signal KC84 at the tunnel mouth (so the 'section' was to there from BIU's signals close to the box), but did have slots on the parallel signals on the UM and US (Nos. 14 and 2 in KC).
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \

Post Reply