New Barnet South box

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EddieBN
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New Barnet South box

Post by EddieBN »

Just been looking at the photo's posted recently of south box ( BZ ) in the winter, brings back memories of the 1962/63 winter. Snow and ice through to March and a permanent speed restriction on all trains imposed until the thaw. Also found a note I'd written at the time regarding track removals......."Down Slow to Up Slow crossover removed 29th July 1962 (down slow points No.29, down fast to up fast points No.26,up slow points No.24, disc signal No's 29,27,25 and 23)......Down Goods to Down Slow turnout removed 2nd February 1964 (FPL No.14, Down Goods to Down Slow points No.15, Down Goods to Down Slow Home signal No.13)...probably the beginning of the end for BZ ?

Eddie.
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet South box

Post by StevieG »

EddieBN wrote:Just been looking at the photo's posted recently of south box ( BZ ) in the winter, brings back memories of the 1962/63 winter. Snow and ice through to March and a permanent speed restriction on all trains imposed until the thaw. Also found a note I'd written at the time regarding track removals......."Down Slow to Up Slow crossover removed 29th July 1962 (down slow points No.29, down fast to up fast points No.26,up slow points No.24, disc signal No's 29,27,25 and 23)......Down Goods to Down Slow turnout removed 2nd February 1964 (FPL No.14, Down Goods to Down Slow points No.15, Down Goods to Down Slow Home signal No.13)...probably the beginning of the end for BZ ?

Eddie.
Thanks for those dates Eddie; good info. to have, which I didn't previously know.
Do you happen to recall if other connections also went during that period, or earlier, or later ? - -
- Slip off points 3 to Down Main from Down Sidings 1 & 2 (points 6, disc 7)
- Down Sdgs. 3 & 4 - Down Goods (points 9, discs 8 & 10)
- Shed Side - Up Slow (points 48, discs 47 & 49) ?

After the track/points removals you & I have mentioned herein, don't think anything else much changed until in 1970, a few weeks before its abolition with the resignalling of the whole Oakleigh Pk.- Barnet area onto a small panel of about 25 switches in Barnet North.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet South box

Post by Mickey »

I suspect the box was a bit of a 'heavy box' to work most of the time that entailed a lot of lever bashing on the frame with 6 running lines (2 being Goods lines that weren't frequently used by the mid/late 1960s) and working on the corresponding block instruments with the boxes either side (Oakleigh Park & New Barnet North Box) and with mostly semaphore signals under it's control except for the Up fast line colour light home/starter signal on the south end of the Up fast line platform all the lever pulling would have been a bit on the heavy side I would assume having to pull semaphore signal weight-bars off for virtually all train movements?.

When B.R. did a repaint job on New Barnet South Box around 1968 that also included New Barnet North Box, Oakleigh Park, Cemetery & New Southgate as well I really liked that colour scheme on those 5 s/boxes which was a sandy/beige colour with the window frames lined out in white.

For the aforementioned colour scheme on New Barnet South Box see the New Barnet North Box thread that features a picture of New Barnet South Box.

Mickey
Last edited by Mickey on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet South box

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: " .... with 6 running lines .... "
(which therefore also entailed having 12 block bells);
and he wrote: " .... (2 being Goods lines that weren't frequently used by the mid/late 1960s) .... " .

Mickey also wrote: " I suspect the box was a bit of a 'heavy box' to work most of the time that entailed a lot of lever bashing on the frame .... "
True that the three Down lines' Distant signals, though not all the same distance from NBS box, were nevertheless at around 1100-1200 yards away.
But probably the most frequently used, on the Down Fast, was motor-worked by the late '60s, most probably made so in connection with the 1959 New Barnet North - Potters Bar quadrupling and resignalling (which had also caused all NBS's Up Distant levers to become short-handled), while of the other two, mechanical to the end, the Down Slow's (No.16) was well worked (but not particularly hard given that distance; perhaps the line being mostly straight helped), 11 on the Down Goods was not (see above).
So apart from those. there were only one or two running stop signals for every main route except for the Up Slow which had a Starter, making three pulls : None of these was more than about 150 yards away, and anyway, ....
Mickey wrote: " .... except for the Up fast line colour light home/starter signal on the south end of the Up fast line platform .... "
.... (which was plated BS 31) meant that both of the Up Fast levers were short-handled (equating to electric switches), and so a quick signalman could get both pulled off in about 2 seconds.

Apart from the aforementioned Down Slow Distant, the hardest (just) of the rest of these signal levers was the Up Slow Starter (36), as you weren't only pulling that signal but also an additional weight bar under the Up Slow Home to backslot Oakleigh Park's Outer Distant, to prevent it coming 'off' if NBS 36 was still at Danger.
Last edited by StevieG on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:49 pm, edited 5 times in total.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet South box

Post by Mickey »

I always liked New Barnet South Box which I believe was built sometime around 1905/06?.

I presume if a train was standing in the Down slow line platform in New Barnet station the signalman in New Barnet South Box after putting the Down slow line home signal back to danger (on the gantry) could give Train Out of Section and 'drop the needle' on the block instrument back to Oakleigh Park but couldn't accept another train until he either saw the train in the platform moving off towards New Barnet North Box or maybe even got Train Out of Section and a 'clear block' from New Barnet North Box?. Also I presume the same would apply for a train standing in the Down fast line platform although from memory I don't recall any passenger trains stopping in the Down fast line platform at New Barnet in the late 1960s & early 1970s?.

I distinctly remember being on New Barnet station one sunny saturday afternoon back in July 1970 a couple of months or so before the resignalling in the New Barnet & Oakleigh Park area and as usual back in those days there was hardly anyone around staff or public wise but I walked along towards the end of the Down slow line platform and the semaphore signals for the South Box were all pulled off on the Up & Down lines so obviously the South Box was 'switched out' but anyway once or twice I heard the 'swish' of the signal wire near me as the New Barnet North Box signalman was pulling off the Down fast line distant signal on the South Box signal gantry (and the motorised distant signal underneath Oakleigh Park's home/starting signal?) and shortly thereafter the approach of an express would be seen rounding the curve just north of Oakleigh Park station.

* * * Stevie I believe I may have asked you this question before but who operated the motorised semaphore distant signal beneath Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/startiing signal was it New Barnet North Box although I presume New Barnet South Box had some sort of 'slotted' control on it if the South Box Down fast line home signal was at danger?. Also I presume Oakleigh Park's Down fast line colour light distant signal on the immediate approach to Barnet tunnel would only show a green aspect when there was a 'clear road' through Oakleigh Park & New Barnet with both the New Barnet South & North boxes distant signals both showing clear!!.* * *

Good old days...

Mickey
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet South box

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: " .... I presume if a train was standing in the Down slow line platform in New Barnet station the signalman in New Barnet South Box after putting the Down slow line home signal back to danger (on the gantry) could give Train Out of Section and 'drop the needle' on the block instrument back to Oakleigh Park but couldn't accept another train until he either saw the train in the platform moving off towards New Barnet North Box or maybe even got Train Out of Section and a 'clear block' from New Barnet North Box?. Also I presume the same would apply for a train standing in the Down fast line platform although from memory I don't recall any passenger trains stopping in the Down fast line platform at New Barnet in the late 1960s & early 1970s?. .... "
Don't recall if there were any Box Special Instructions about this situation (same situation applied to both Down lines), though certainly there was no Reg'n.5 authority.
So I don't see any advantage in giving 'Train Out of Section' (TOS) and 'un-pegging' unless an immediately following train could be accepted straight away.
I reckon that the actual 440-yard clearing point would've been around the bottom of the station staircase up to the footbridge and booking hall (IIRC the boxes were 396 yards apart), so I think some may have given TOS when a typical 2, 3 or 4-car local passenger came to a stand in the middle, or towards the north end, of the platform, but I think most only did that once the train was moving off sufficiently fast or far that if it stopped again, probably no part of it would still be in the platform.

Mickey wrote: " .... I distinctly remember being on New Barnet station one sunny saturday afternoon back in July 1970 a couple of months or so before the resignalling in the New Barnet & Oakleigh Park area and .... .... I walked along towards the end of the Down slow line platform and the semaphore signals for the South Box were all pulled off on the Up & Down lines so obviously the South Box was 'switched out' .... "
NBS's Up Slow Home ought to have only been 'Off' if a train was definitely coming : - New Barnet was the last southern ECML location that I knew of (e.g. others had, at one time or another, been Fins.Pk., Wood Green, Hatfield, Biggleswade, Huntingdon) to have the arrangement of transferring of control (i.e. not slotting) of signals to one box when the other switched out.
New Barnet North Box had levers 12, 58 and 65 (also previously 21) solely to operate certain South Box signals when that box was switched out :
NBS 16 Down Slow Distant would become NBN Outer Distant 12,
NBS 31 Up Fast Home became NBN Starter 58,
and NBS 37 Up Slow Home became NBN Starter 65.
(when still mechanical, NBS 21 Down Fast Distant used to become NBN Outer Distant 21).

Mickey wrote: " .... but anyway once or twice I heard the 'swish' of the signal wire near me as the New Barnet North Box signalman was pulling off the Down fast line distant signal on the South Box signal gantry (and the motorised distant signal underneath Oakleigh Park's home/starting signal?) and shortly thereafter the approach of an express would be seen rounding the curve just north of Oakleigh Park station. .... "
NBN's DF Distant 22 under NBS's Home, was also motorised (presumably so that if either of North's DF colour-lights' lamp(s) failed, or dropped - Home 23 to single Yellow or Red; or Starter 24 to Red, the Distant would drop to Caution straight away).
So the only wire movement you would've heard there if South was switched out could've been NBN pulling : Either his own (13), or South's (NBN12), Distants for the Down Slow; or (if its wire ran that way) South's US Home as his Starter.

Mickey wrote: " .... * * * Stevie I believe I may have asked you this question before but who operated the motorised semaphore distant signal beneath Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/startiing signal was it New Barnet North Box although I presume New Barnet South Box had some sort of 'slotted' control on it if the South Box Down fast line home signal was at danger?. Also I presume Oakleigh Park's Down fast line colour light distant signal on the immediate approach to Barnet tunnel would only show a green aspect when there was a 'clear road' through Oakleigh Park & New Barnet with both the New Barnet South & North boxes distant signals both showing clear!!.* * *

Good old days... .... "
That motored Distant at Oakleigh Park Mickey, while most likely referred to as 'NBS's Distant', was effectively electrically 'slotted' by both 'Barnet' boxes : To clear, it needed South's 21 Distant lever Reversed ( and Oak.Pk.'s Home above, 'Off' of course), and NBN's 22 Distant lever Reversed and its arm 'Off' (and no doubt also NBS's Home arm proved 'Off', NBN's Home proved to be YY or G, and his Starter proved at Y, YY or G).
Oakleigh Park's No.9 3-aspect colour-light Distant at Cemetery, was in essence an Outer Distant for both NB boxes, with motor-Distant at OP being what might be regarded as NBN's intermediate (middle) distant : -
- So OP 9 changed Y to YY when OP 'pulled off', and YY to G when the DF signals of both NB boxes were all 'Off'.
Last edited by StevieG on Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet South box

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:
Mickey wrote: " .... I presume if a train was standing in the Down slow line platform in New Barnet station the signalman in New Barnet South Box after putting the Down slow line home signal back to danger (on the gantry) could give Train Out of Section and 'drop the needle' on the block instrument back to Oakleigh Park but couldn't accept another train until he either saw the train in the platform moving off towards New Barnet North Box or maybe even got Train Out of Section and a 'clear block' from New Barnet North Box?. Also I presume the same would apply for a train standing in the Down fast line platform although from memory I don't recall any passenger trains stopping in the Down fast line platform at New Barnet in the late 1960s & early 1970s?. .... "
Don't recall if there were any Box Special Instructions about this situation (same situation applied to both Down lines), though certainly there was no Reg'n.5 authority.
So I don't see any advantage in giving 'Train Out of Section' (TOS) and 'un-pegging' unless an immediately following train could be accepted straight away.
I reckon that the actual 440-yard clearing point would've been around the bottom of the station staircase up to the footbridge and booking hall (IIRC the boxes were 396 yards apart), so I think some may have given TOS when a typical 2, 3 or 4-car local passenger came to a stand in the middle, or towards the north end, of the platform, but I think most only did that once the train was moving off sufficiently fast or far that if it stopped again, probably no part of it would still be in the platform.
In reality your probably correct Stevie the signalman in New Barnet South Box would usually 'give out' (Train Out of Section) to Oakleigh Park and 'drop the needle' on the block instrument when a train was leaving the Down fast or Down slow lines platforms and proceeding towards New Barnet North Box although I presume there was nothing in reality (no track circuit controls?) stopping the signalman in New Barnet South Box 'giving out' to Oakleigh Park and also 'dropping the needle' but if Oakleigh Park box then offered him another train straight away he would/should have to 'refuse it' until the 440 yards 'clearing point' was again 'clear' which was by the sounds of it was towards the north end of New Barnet station on both the Down fast & Down slow lines. The exception to my previous statement would be if there was track circuit(s) in advance of both home signals on the Down fast & Down slow lines that ran the full 440 yards to the end of the 'clearing point(s)' on both the Down fast & Down slow lines in which case both block instruments for the Down fast & Down slow lines would have been interlinked with the track circuit(s) controls preventing the signalman in New Barnet South Box from accepting another train from Oakleigh Park until he had first returned to the 'on position' the home signal and the train would have had to have passed over and clear of the track circuit(s) before the block instrument could be un-pegged and the needle dropped back to the 'Line Blocked' or 'Normal' position on the block instrument for that particular line and only then another train could have then accepted from Oakleigh Park.

I remember now you saying before that the New Barnet North Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal (underneath New Barnet South Box home signal on the gantry) was motorised so it was my imagination that I heard the 'swishing' sound of the signal wire being pulled off by the North Box signalman.

Also interesting technical knowledge regarding the distant signal beneath Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/starting signal in that technically it was New Barnet North Box distant signal but obviously New Barnet South Box had some control on it as well which I guessed it would have had.

Mickey
Mickey

Re: New Barnet South box

Post by Mickey »

A Down Kings Cross to Newcastle express behind Deltic no.D9013 The Black Watch receives a rare signals check on the approach to New Barnet station in 1968. New Barnet South Box can just be seen above the first and second coach roof of the B.R.Mk.2s also seen is the New Barnet South Box signal gantry that carried all of the New Barnet South Box Down lines home signals as well as all of the New Barnet North Box Down lines distant signals.

Photograph taken by David Percival.
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Last edited by Mickey on Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet South box

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: " .... although I presume there was nothing in reality (no track circuit controls?) stopping the signalman in New Barnet South Box 'giving out' to Oakleigh Park and also 'dropping the needle' .... "
" .... if there was track circuit(s) in advance of both home signals on the Down fast & Down slow lines that ran the full 440 yards to the end of the 'clearing point(s)' on both the Down fast & Down slow lines in which case both block instruments for the Down fast & Down slow lines would have been interlinked with the track circuit(s) controls preventing the signalman in New Barnet South Box from accepting another train from Oakleigh Park until he had first returned to the 'on position' the home signal and the train would have had to have passed over and clear of the track circuit(s) before the block instrument could be un-pegged and the needle dropped back to the 'Line Blocked' or 'Normal' position on the block instrument .... "
This lot might be getting rather long to maintain other readers' interest, so I'll just make the following comments :

'Track circuits?' - yes, through the platforms, but ending at North Box's Homes, not specifically geared to a spot 440-yards from South's Homes :
'TC Controls?' - I'm pretty sure it was 'no', much as were the majority of such situations : In fact, through all the boxes which I visited through the whole suburban area, the unusual Down Fast situation at Oakleigh Park was the only one where there was a specific ' "440 yards" beyond the first Home' track circuit which controlled the Block instrument's rear section needle.
Mickey wrote: " .... I remember now you saying before that the New Barnet North Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal (underneath New Barnet South Box home signal on the gantry) was motorised so it was my imagination that I heard the 'swishing' sound of the signal wire being pulled off by the North Box signalman. .... "
... for the Down Fast, yes you imagined it, but as I detailed in the last post, you could've heard wire movements for other signals.
Mickey wrote:Also interesting technical knowledge regarding the distant signal beneath Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/starting signal in that technically it was New Barnet North Box distant signal but obviously New Barnet South Box had some control on it as well which I guessed it would have had. "
As the first stop signal that it applied to was South Box's, it was more appropriate to regard it as South's Distant also controlled by North.
in his latest post, Mickey wrote: A Down Kings Cross to Newcastle express behind Deltic no.D9013 The Black Watch receives a rare signals check on the approach to New Barnet station in 1968. .... "
( "Photograph taken by David Percival.")
Seeing this shot prompts a possible vague memory that occupation of the DF 'platform' TC (which commenced from a point just clear of South Box's No.20 DF - Down Slow 'turn-in' points) might have been arranged to automatically drop that North Box Distant back to 'On'. So if that was the case, it's possible that that Distant may have been 'Off' for the pictured train, which would then have just caused that arm to be photo-captured back in the Caution position.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: New Barnet South box

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote:This lot might be getting rather long to maintain other readers' interest, so I'll just make the following comments :
Yes I think you may well be correct in your assumption Stevie also it's fairly hard and sometimes a bit of a long winded process trying to explain signalling technicalities in writing to be honest.
StevieG wrote:'Track circuits?' - yes, through the platforms, but ending at North Box's Homes, not specifically geared to a spot 440-yards from South's Homes.
Thats interesting and noted.
StevieG wrote:'TC Controls?' - I'm pretty sure it was 'no', much as were the majority of such situations : In fact, through all the boxes which I visited through the whole suburban area, the unusual Down Fast situation at Oakleigh Park was the only one where there was a specific ' "440 yards" beyond the first Home' track circuit which controlled the Block instrument's rear section needle.
Yes the Oakleigh Park 'set up' on the Down fast lines was interesting I notced that as well and assumed that by looking at R.Ps. Oakleigh Park track diagram noting that a track circuit extended all the way from Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/starting signal virtually all the way to New Barnet South Box Down fast line home signal on the gantry (without looking at the track diagram again and checking?).
StevieG wrote:
Mickey wrote: " .... I remember now you saying before that the New Barnet North Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal (underneath New Barnet South Box home signal on the gantry) was motorised so it was my imagination that I heard the 'swishing' sound of the signal wire being pulled off by the North Box signalman. .... "
... for the Down Fast, yes you imagined it, but as I detailed in the last post, you could've heard wire movements for other signals.
Yes I could may well have heard other signal wires being pulled off that afternoon.
StevieG wrote:
Mickey wrote:Also interesting technical knowledge regarding the distant signal beneath Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/starting signal in that technically it was New Barnet North Box distant signal but obviously New Barnet South Box had some control on it as well which I guessed it would have had. "
As the first stop signal that it applied to was South Box's, it was more appropriate to regard it as South's Distant also controlled by North.
Yes I would have also been inclined to have regarded the Down fast line distant signal beneath Oakleigh Park's Down fast line home/starting signal in reality as 'belonging' to New Barnet South Box rather than it being New Barnet North Box distant signal.

Thanks Stevie...

Mickey
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