G.E.R. loco's in East Kent

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DS239
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G.E.R. loco's in East Kent

Post by DS239 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:26 pm

Hello Folks,

I Have in an article a photo of a GER 0-6-0T -A T18(LNER J66) I think- at Richborough in Kent on 29th March 1917 being used by the IW&D on construction works,- the question is.- does anyone know its identity? Or any other information about it..?

Any info would be helpful,

Cheers, Phil
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Richborough
Last edited by DS239 on Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

PaulG
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Re: Buckjumper in Kent

Post by PaulG » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:54 pm

Phil

In The GERS Journal of October 1986 R.C. Riley raised the matter of the GER locos at Richborough Port in World War 1. He states that the "Journal of the Institute of Civil Engineers" (Paper No.4282 by J.K. Robertson 1919) lists among the engines three exGER 4-4-0 engines and one ex GER 0-6-0 engine. The list does not state if the locos are tank engines or note, confusing historians and subsequent articles.

Given that the port was primarily used for freight traffic, Dick suggested to GERS members that in fact the 4-4-0 were in fact 2-4-2 tanks and the 0-6-0 also a tank engine, which your photograph appears to support.

I have quickly scanned through the subsequent 30 years of GERS Journals and can't find a response to the original query! However, the GERS Locomotive Co-odinator Lyn D Brooks has produced several articles on GER locos, which I haven't yet scanned through.

Paul

Wainwright
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Re: Buckjumper in Kent

Post by Wainwright » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:28 pm

I agree it's likely that the '4-4-0' and '0-6-0's would be tank engines, but why not a G4 0-4-4T (sorry, LNER designation) instead of a 2-4-2T? Given the SECR operated no locos of this type, I'd (possibly naievely) assume they'd be more welcoming to the bogie loco, and it's easy enough to switch 4-4-0 for 0-4-4 as a typing/proofread error.

Richborough 'secret port' was a problem for the SECR; they didn't have many tank locos, and from what I've read one of their 'standard' types (not that they really had such things), the ex LCDR T class 0-6-0T, had most of its number on loan to the ROD in France (mainly in Boulogne) for most of the war!
http://www.semgonline.com/steam/tclass_01.html

The SECR had only 42 0-6-0Ts during WW1, by my count (including the 10 in France). That's not all that much for a railway that's just had a major military railhead established in the middle of it. Ashford were still rebuilding Stirling's R 0-6-0Ts into R1s during this time, too...

Maunsell built on 0-6-0St from a C class 0-6-0 in 1917, and there appears to have been a Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0T ordered by the Port of London Authority but apparently operated by the IW&D and delivered in 1917, called 'Richboro' (this is the loco now at Aknwick, North-Eastern fans) -- I'd assume it worked at Richborough?

All this suggests that there was a deparate need for more locos from anyone who could pass them along. The GER was a near neighbour. (sort of).

This article on the East Kent Light Railway involvement at Richborough (mainly speculative), states that one of the military engineers involved in building the wartime port was one OVS Bulleid...
https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/ea ... rough-port

DS239
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Re: Buckjumper in Kent

Post by DS239 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:43 pm

Thanks for the replies, I have now successfully managed to scan and upload the relevant photo [I failed dismally yesterday :( ]

To answer some of the points raised:

With regards to loco's, IW&D had quite a lot of its own at work there as well as some on hire from the mainline railway companies.

I'm aware of most of these, and finding the actual locomotives concerned is what I'm attempting to do.

Robert Butler [author of the book 'Richborough Port'] informed me that the GER 4-4-0's mentioned were 'Claud Hamiltons', although why they were there remains a mystery.
As can be seen from the photo, the 0-6-0 mentioned is definitely a Buckjumper.

There were also 0-4-4T's and 2-4-2T's from the GER in use.
SECR loco's used in the construction were P class, Terrier 751, Crane Tank 302 and R class.
I'm not certain hat the S Class actually worked at Richborough, I think it was always at Bricklayers' Arms where it shunted the traffic bound for Richborough..
The Hudswell Clark at Alnwick was indeed a Richborough loco, and was supplied new there, as were several other industrial types.

Bullied was involved with the construction of all-welded 'AC' barges at shipyard no.1 within the Richborough complex..
Last edited by DS239 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

DS239
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Re: G.E.R. Loco's in East Kent

Post by DS239 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:42 pm

Hello again,

I have now amended the thread title to see if I can find more info on the other loco types associated with Richborough:

Loco's inherited by the LNER concerned were:

3 GER 4-4-0's
See discussion above, I've heard they were Clauds, but others think they were mis-identified.

1 GER 0-6-0T
See photo in my OP, appears to be a T18 [LNER J66], identity unknown.

1 or 2 GER Class Y65 [LNER F7] 2-4-2T's
From RCTS Green Book: 'During this period, one or two F7's broke fresh ground when employed by the Government at Richborough Port in Kent', identities unknown.

6 GER Class S44 [LNER G4] 0-4-4T's
From RCTS Green Book: 'For a time during the First World War, No. 1111/3/7/9/28/32 were at Richborough Port in Kent, on loan to the Government.'


Coaching stock at the port is reported as:
1 Inspection Saloon
1 4 wheel first,
2 4 wheel second,
1 4 wheel brake third,
12 Ex GER 6 wheel thirds.

Although it seems there were some internal passenger workings at the port, I assume most of the time they were employed on shunting duties, the War Dept. had several of its own industrial loco's in use, and it also owned two Ex-LNWR Webb 2-4-2T's [of which there are photo's showing them shunting wagons] and had on loan two 0-4-4T's from the Midland, so maybe they were just desperate for loco's, even though some of the types in use were primarily passenger engines..


Again, any info gratefully received, hopefully some GER experts will come to my aid..

Cheers, Phil

Edited to [hopefully] make more sense..

DS239
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Re: Buckjumper in Kent

Post by DS239 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:04 pm

PaulG wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:54 pm
In The GERS Journal of October 1986 R.C. Riley raised the matter of the GER locos at Richborough Port in World War 1. He states that the "Journal of the Institute of Civil Engineers" (Paper No.4282 by J.K. Robertson 1919) lists among the engines three exGER 4-4-0 engines and one ex GER 0-6-0 engine. The list does not state if the locos are tank engines or note, confusing historians and subsequent articles.
This is a bit of a 'bump' to see if anyone has any more thoughts on the subject.

With reference to the above the paper by J. Kerr Robertson he describes the loco's as : Three 19" 4-4-0 GER and one 16.5" 0-6-0 GER.
Given that the latter is an accurate description of the 'Buckjumper' that we have photographic evidence of as being at Richborough, it surely follows that his descriptions are accurate, in the case of the 19" 4-4-0's, the 'Clauds' would be the only loco's to fit the bill..

Of course, that doesn't answer the question of why would such unlikely loco's to be found there... :?

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Re: Buckjumper in Kent

Post by 52D » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:08 pm

Wainwright wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:28 pm
I agree it's likely that the '4-4-0' and '0-6-0's would be tank engines, but why not a G4 0-4-4T (sorry, LNER designation) instead of a 2-4-2T? Given the SECR operated no locos of this type, I'd (possibly naievely) assume they'd be more welcoming to the bogie loco, and it's easy enough to switch 4-4-0 for 0-4-4 as a typing/proofread error.

Richborough 'secret port' was a problem for the SECR; they didn't have many tank locos, and from what I've read one of their 'standard' types (not that they really had such things), the ex LCDR T class 0-6-0T, had most of its number on loan to the ROD in France (mainly in Boulogne) for most of the war!
http://www.semgonline.com/steam/tclass_01.html

The SECR had only 42 0-6-0Ts during WW1, by my count (including the 10 in France). That's not all that much for a railway that's just had a major military railhead established in the middle of it. Ashford were still rebuilding Stirling's R 0-6-0Ts into R1s during this time, too...

Maunsell built on 0-6-0St from a C class 0-6-0 in 1917, and there appears to have been a Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0T ordered by the Port of London Authority but apparently operated by the IW&D and delivered in 1917, called 'Richboro' (this is the loco now at Aknwick, North-Eastern fans) -- I'd assume it worked at Richborough?

All this suggests that there was a deparate need for more locos from anyone who could pass them along. The GER was a near neighbour. (sort of).

This article on the East Kent Light Railway involvement at Richborough (mainly speculative), states that one of the military engineers involved in building the wartime port was one OVS Bulleid...
https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/ea ... rough-port
Its Alnwick pronounced A NICK hq of the AVR Aln Valley Railway my mate Kev will be up in arms if he sees this post lol but i will ask the question
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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Re: G.E.R. loco's in East Kent

Post by 52D » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:44 pm

William Stafford,- Richboro was ordered by the Port of London Authority for use at Richborough, but was actually delivered to the Inland Waterways Board as the need for materials on the Western Front was starting to diminish by the time it was delivered.
Very shortly after the end of the war it was sold to the owners of Irfan Colliery in Shropshire and worked there until the 1950’s when it was briefly transferred to Gresham Colliery before withdrawal.
I have not seen any evidence that it actually worked for either PoL or the Inland Waterways.

Thanks to a friend who is on here under another name.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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Re: G.E.R. loco's in East Kent

Post by DS239 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:27 pm

Although a bit off-topic as this thread is about the GER loco's at Richborough, I'll add my thoughts..
52D wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:44 pm
Richboro was ordered by the Port of London Authority for use at Richborough, but was actually delivered to the Inland Waterways Board
It was ordered by the PLA for use in their own docks, but was diverted to the IW&D for use at Richborough.
Very shortly after the end of the war it was sold to the owners of Irfan Colliery in Shropshire and worked there until the 1950’s when it was briefly transferred to Gresham Colliery before withdrawal.
That's IFTON Colliery..
I have not seen any evidence that it actually worked for either PoL or the Inland Waterways.
Well, not the PLA, but it did work for the IW&D.. this may or may not be the actual loco, as there were several similar ones used at Richborough, here seen shunting tank wagons on to, or off, the train ferry.
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