A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

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strang steel
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A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by strang steel » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:45 pm

On reading through Railway Obervers for 1955, I came across this rather amazing report.

"On Monday 24th July [1955] S.R. C2X 0-6-0 32554 (73B) worked the Ashburton Grove refuse train in both directions, having been commandeered by Hornsey"

Now, if a photo of this comes up on Ebay.....
John

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by StevieG » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:49 am

...in some signal boxes, also referred to unceremoniously as 'the Dustbins'.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Mickey » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:42 am

strang steel wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:45 pm
On reading through Railway Obervers for 1955, I came across this rather amazing report.

"On Monday 24th July [1955] S.R. C2X 0-6-0 32554 (73B) worked the Ashburton Grove refuse train in both directions, having been commandeered by Hornsey"
I believe there is a photograph of a ex-LB&SCR loco shown on Hatfield shed somewhere on this forum, the photograph shows the loco with Hatfield no.3 (box) in the background.

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Hatfield Shed » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:52 pm

Since Bulleid Q1s were recorded on freight transfer from SR to Ferme Park, I have an example of both this class and the very pretty Wainwright C on the layout, and with this information am now prepared to put either on the 'Dustbins' too.

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by rockinjohn » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:15 am

Hi all, the "Pullman"what pulled it out? my parents bedroom viewing point was straight across to the "vestry"departure sidings,up to 5yrs old&school holidays with any other days I could muster to view along with my cat, here goes J6/V2/B16/B1/Austeritys/Brush type2/Baby Deltics/EEtype 1/Paxman/BTH type1 (poss.d/headed) sadly boiler top(steam)or roof top(on diesels) viewed only, so no numbers to report, always wondered about the B16 must have been a York o/nite, quite a few "up"light workings '55-'57, a fill in turn or postioning for the Welwyn mid evening n/bound goods?jj

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Hatfield Shed » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:58 pm

rockinjohn wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:15 am
Hi all, the "Pullman"what pulled it out? my parents bedroom viewing point was straight across to the "vestry"departure sidings,up to 5yrs old&school holidays with any other days I could muster to view along with my cat, here goes J6/V2/B16/B1/Austeritys/Brush type2/Baby Deltics/EEtype 1/Paxman/BTH type1 (poss.d/headed) sadly boiler top(steam)or roof top(on diesels) viewed only, so no numbers to report, always wondered about the B16 must have been a York o/nite, quite a few "up"light workings '55-'57, a fill in turn or postioning for the Welwyn mid evening n/bound goods?jj
That would be no further than WGC for the steam classes. Whether going along the Hertford branch or the Luton and Dunstable to the various tips, the steam power would typically be N2 or N7. I daresay there is a possibility that the N5 at Hatfield shed for a few weeks of summer 1959 might have got on this turn. (The last Hatfield allocated loco I saw working was an N7 struggling with the dustbins (locally 'the stink train') on the Hertford branch at the Ridgeway crossing.)

The BTH type 1s always paired with another of the class, or another loco (presumably two crews as the MU control was incompatible) and I recall how one of these failing on the return trip swiftly filled WGC station with smoke, mostly unburnt diesel.

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Mickey » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:50 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:58 pm
The BTH type 1s always paired with another of the class, or another loco (presumably two crews as the MU control was incompatible) and I recall how one of these failing on the return trip swiftly filled WGC station with smoke, mostly unburnt diesel.
Some shunting moves were required at WGC involving the 'rubbish trains' to get them from the Luton line platform over and onto the Up lines for the run back to Ashburton Grove. The 'rubbish train empties' would arrive from Blackbridge sidings in the Luton line platform at WGC and would then continue on through the Luton line platform (providing the disc signal no.? was off below the 'fixed at danger' full-size stop arm at the south end of the Luton line platform?) and out onto and along the Down slow line as far as the 'limit of shunt' board on the approach to the twentieth mile bridge where the train would be stopped after which the train would then be propelled back along the Down slow line (providing no.9 signal was off and no.10 colour light signal was also off) through the station being 'turned out' onto the Down fast line outside the box with the train being brought to a stand just under the Hunters road over bridge and waiting behind no.30 ground disc signal to be cleared after which once no.30 disc signal had been cleared it would usually be signalled through the main to main crossover and along the Up fast line towards Hatfield looking quite impressive with two BTH type 1s blasting through WGC station heading along the Up fast line with a train of large wagon empties and a guards brake van bringing up the rear!.

Harry Fitzgerald who was one of the resident signalmen at WGC box during the 1960s and into the 1970s and who had joined the LNER in the 1930s and had been a signalman all his railway service told me that GN signalmen would always run freight trains fast line because they would always get out of the way of an express.

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Pennine MC » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:58 pm

The BTH type 1s always paired with another of the class, or another loco (presumably two crews as the MU control was incompatible) ...
BTH type 1s, Baby Deltics and Brush 2s all Blue Star, Paul. You may be thinking of the NBLs, which were Red Circle?

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by StevieG » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:46 pm

Mickey, your missing Disc signal number was No. 6.
Surely even Harry didn't let the returning 'pullmans' set off Up the Fast if there was an express passenger past, say, Stevenage ?
Even when he did let them go UF, wouldn't be surprised if whoever was at Hatfield 2, (when it was there, Red Hall), or Potters Bar turned them 'in' onto the Slow. :
Hard to see how a freight running at no more than 75mph (more likely not exceeding 60 ? ) would 'get out of the way' of an express while running ahead on the Up Fast.
BZOH

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Mickey » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:35 pm

StevieG wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:46 pm
Mickey, your missing Disc signal number was No. 6.
Surely even Harry didn't let the returning 'pullmans' set off Up the Fast if there was an express passenger past, say, Stevenage ?
Even when he did let them go UF, wouldn't be surprised if whoever was at Hatfield 2, (when it was there, Red Hall), or Potters Bar turned them 'in' onto the Slow. :
Hard to see how a freight running at no more than 75mph (more likely not exceeding 60 ? ) would 'get out of the way' of an express while running ahead on the Up Fast.
Yes that was the lever number Stevie no.6 lever I obviously had forgotten it although I remembered that it was a very low numbered lever. That no.6 lever was occasionally pulled during the weekday evening peaks along with no.5 lever that worked a set of motor points leading from the Down slow line to the Luton line platform when one or two early evening terminating trains usually diesel hauled by Brush type 2s hauling a rake of 'block enders' (inner suburban coaches) would terminate in the Luton line platform which during the 1960s & 1970s was platform no.1 but in the subsequent years has become platform no.4 these days. In those days the 1960s & early 1970s it was normal practice for a propelling movement by a diesel loco hauled set of maybe 6 'block enders' to be propelled out of the Luton line platform and back out onto the Down slow line as far as the 'limit of Shunt' board on the approach to the Twentieth Mile bridge something that would definitely not be allowed nowadays.

That propelling movement out of the Luton platform with the terminating trains ECS and which also applied to the Blackbridge sidings-Ashburton Grove empties returning back up to London after arriving in the Luton line platform was before the move commenced the WGC signalman had to 'Block back inside home signal' (2-4 block bell) back to Hatfield No.2 (and previously to Hatfield No.3) on the Down slow line and put the 'block needle' to Train On Line as well to protect the shunt move standing stationary on the Down slow line.

Ha ha ha... Old Harry Fitzgerald and his regulating style of 'giving a freight train a main line run because it would always get out of the way of an express' was how I remember it and I remember him telling me that it was the GN way of doing it "Run e'm main line boy" although I very much doubt if he would do it himself if he had already got the 4 bells 'be ready' for a express from either Hatfield No.2 (or previously No.3) on the Down fast line or from Welwyn North on the Up fast line, Harry would obviously wait for the express to pass through first before running the freight.

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by thesignalman » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:11 am

I do remember it was popular practice on the GN more than other lines I worked on to give freight trains "the gun" (as it was sometimes described) by running them Main line. Drivers would certainly "do their best" but perhaps the reason was not so much manic driving but their understanding of signalling and safety and ability to make decisions for themselves, something there is no place for on the modern railway.

The Slow and Goods lines on the GN were plagued with speed restrictions, particularly on the curves round the back of platforms. In contrast, the Main lines had long braking distances between Distant signals and Home signals for the benefit of fast expresses. This lengthy braking distance could be used to advantage for freight trains because the reason for the different speed restrictions on various types of freight had little to do with wagons leaping off the rails (as many think) and everything to do with being able to stop according to its braking ability.

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by StevieG » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:36 am

Yes, remembering all that Mickey.
The signalman ,
Just as I thought John.
BZOH

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Mickey » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:21 am

Slow line running on the Midland-

I visited St Albans South box on three separate occasions during 1970 and it was noticeable that all the coal trains that were running at that time to the Brent/Cricklewood area of north west London and that had originated from the Nottinghamshire coalfields were always run along the Up slow line probably all the way from Glendon North Junction and were at that time usually 'Peak' (class 45) hauled and were known as "class 8 freights" (3-2 block bell) by the signalmen and as such they had a brake vans in the rear of there train with the corresponding coal empties heading back down road from Brent to the Nottinghamshire coalfields running on the Down slow line as well with the fast lines being kept open mainly for the few expresses on the St Pancras-Derby, Sheffield & Nottingham runs.

The Ashburton Grove Pullman-

With regards to the Ashburton Grove-Blackbridge sidings 'rubbish trains' if they weren't double-headed with BTH type 1 diesels they were quite often double-headed with Brush type 2s (class 31s) working in multiple and they were heavy trains when fully loaded which they always were.

"The Ashburton Grove Pullman" running along the Up slow line at Greenwood between Hadley Wood & New Barnet stations-

http://railwayherald.com/images/ic/750/129910.jpg

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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by thesignalman » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:49 am

Mickey wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:21 am
Slow line running on the Midland-

I visited St Albans South box on three separate occasions during 1970 and it was noticeable that all the coal trains that were running at that time to the Brent/Cricklewood area of north west London and that had originated from the Nottinghamshire coalfields were always run along the Up slow line probably all the way from Glendon North Junction and were at that time usually 'Peak' (class 45) hauled and were known as "class 8 freights" (3-2 block bell) by the signalmen and as such they had a brake vans in the rear of there train with the corresponding coal empties heading back down road from Brent to the Nottinghamshire coalfields running on the Down slow line as well with the fast lines being kept open mainly for the few expresses on the St Pancras-Derby, Sheffield & Nottingham runs.
Now you are getting me nostalgic, Mickey! Not wanting to divert this thread onto non-LNER things but quickly to say whilst to your ears you may have heard these trains called "Class 8" freights they would have been actually calling them "Class A" which was a term used in the 1970s that went back so far in history that I could not find anybody who could explain the origin. We also had "Maltese" freights on the Midland - these, at least, I did have explained that faster freights with a fitted head (Class 7 in the 1970s) were shown in the Working Timetables with a Maltese Cross symbol in earlier days to show their "importance". I have WTTs going back to the late 1950s without this symbol so we are talking of dates before then.

John
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Re: A snippet for enthusiasts of the "Ashburton Grove Pullman"

Post by Mickey » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:13 pm

thesignalman wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:49 am
Now you are getting me nostalgic, Mickey! Not wanting to divert this thread onto non-LNER things but quickly to say whilst to your ears you may have heard these trains called "Class 8" freights they would have been actually calling them "Class A" which was a term used in the 1970s that went back so far in history that I could not find anybody who could explain the origin. We also had "Maltese" freights on the Midland - these, at least, I did have explained that faster freights with a fitted head (Class 7 in the 1970s) were shown in the Working Timetables with a Maltese Cross symbol in earlier days to show their "importance". I have WTTs going back to the late 1950s without this symbol so we are talking of dates before then.
I dare say that I misheard the signalman John when I thought he said a class 8 freight instead of a class A freight.

Posting about "The Midland" on a LNER website tut tut it isn't on lol ha ha ha...

Back on LNER territory I visited Ashburton Grove s/box back in the summer of 1971 where the "Ashburton Grove Pullmans" originated from it's on a thread on here somewhere?.

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