Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

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cunningnLNER
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Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:48 am

Hi folks,

I'm new on the forum so apologies if this has been covered before (I couldn't find it in a cursory search of the site).

I'm modelling Peterborough in the 50s/60s (in software) and have a confusion - according to the OS map from 1924 (http://maps.nls.uk/view/114476474) the four lines as they cross the river are (from West to East):

Down Slow
dead-end siding
Down Fast
Up Fast/Slow.

I realise that the layout in/through Peterborough North had grown up 'organically' over the years and had several operational issues - but this use of an expensive river bridge for a siding seems insane. According to later signal diagrams (Crescent Junction - un-dated but shows sempahores with theatres so in the right period for me) the four main lines appear to come through in a more logical order ( ie down slow, down fast, up fast, up slow) - BUT - this doesn't show the river crossing so isn't conclusive.

So my question is - when did the tracks across the river bridges change to the later layout? I know there was a big change in the 70s but I want to know what happened in the 50s?60s?

Any ideas?

Thanks
Neil

cunningnLNER
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:01 pm

No takers? Did I anyone catch a cab ride South from Peterborough in the 1950s or 1960s? Any help gratefully received!

Neil

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Bryan » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:41 pm

Any thing visible in the "Get Carter "opening bit?

cunningnLNER
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:05 pm

There's a thought - I'll see if I can find it on YouTube - thanks for the idea.

Mickey
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:26 am

Below. Crescent Junction (box) in 1966.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... IP.kavO-si...

Below. LNER days at Crescent Junction as a heavy double-headed down express approaches Peterborough North station.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... .g6cRjoWN3...

From a fading memory these days regarding when the current Peterborough station was opened during 1973 and the main running lines through Peterborough were 'straightened out' for high-speed running at the same time the bridge over the river Nene to the south of Peterborough up until that time had a permanent 20mph speed restriction running over it's all four running lines dating from 'way back when' because until that time when all trains were approaching Peterborough from the south (and north) after passing Fletton Junction the trains speed was 'brought down' considerably to a slower speed when immediately approaching and passing over the river Nene bridge before passing Crescent Junction and running into Peterborough North station.

Mickey

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StevieG
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by StevieG » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:49 am

cunningnLNER wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:48 am
" .... I'm modelling Peterborough in the 50s/60s (in software) and have a confusion - according to the OS map from 1924 (http://maps.nls.uk/view/114476474) the four lines as they cross the river are (from West to East):

Down Slow
dead-end siding
Down Fast
Up Fast/Slow .... "
Before trying to address your main query, and I'm sorry but I'm mostly unfamiliar with using the nls website mapping, but the linked-to map does not include the river bridges and in any case this mapping does not normally show line-names. So what is the source of the line designations which you have listed ?
BZOH

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Hatfield Shed » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:17 pm

cunningnLNER wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:48 am
...the four main lines appear to come through in a more logical order ( ie down slow, down fast, up fast, up slow) - BUT - this doesn't show the river crossing so isn't conclusive.

So my question is - when did the tracks across the river bridges change to the later layout? I know there was a big change in the 70s but I want to know what happened in the 50s?60s?...
I was rather too young to have directly appreciated the subtleties of track layouts as early as required, but Colin Walker's album 'Eastern Region Steam Twilight (1)' with pics from the late fifties to the early sixties says to me that the Nene bridge arrangement was West to East: down slow, down fast, up fast, up slow at the time those pictures were taken. (At this point someone who actually knows pops up with ''Despite apperances..."!)

Excellent 'atmos' shots of Peterborough, if you need any of that for your project.

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thesignalman
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by thesignalman » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:58 pm

Herewith a signalling diagram of Crescent Junction at 1951 which may be of use:
https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1179

John
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:00 pm

At the north end of Peterborough North station in August 1960 as a Up Newcastle-Kings Cross express enters the station behind Thompson A2/3 no.60518 Tehran this loco was eventually withdrawn from traffic in November 1962.

http://www.peterboroughimages.co.uk/blo ... /60518.jpg

Mickey

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by harvester » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:19 pm

Good to see a picture Mickey of a not often pictured A2. On my first train spotting expedition (Leeds Central) in the mid 50's my first "namers" were Foxhunter , Terhan and Bois Roussel .

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:01 am

Many thanks guys. very helpful (and means I can re-do the damn layout again - but at least this time with more confidence!).

I loved the photos Mickey - good to have some in colour (most of the steam-era ones I have are in B&W).

The track layout is good - I had a similar one but with no date so couldn't be sure whether it was pre or post the 70s relaying.

Re the NLS stuff - yes - that one doesn't show the layout at the bridges - but this one does (http://maps.nls.uk/view/114476507)- as you will see this is the cause of my original doubt as to the use of the 'second' line (counting from the left/West) as it was a dead-end siding when the (very detailed) maps were done.

Also great to know that the 20mph limit started at the bridges - I had assumed it was closer to the station.

Thanks again folks - these posts have been a massive help (apologies for the delay in picking up - I was busy at the Grantham end).

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StevieG
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by StevieG » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:24 pm

Thanks for that other map from NLS cunningnLNER.
I note that the 'dead-end siding', where it could be expected that the Down Main/Fast line ought to be, is rather long to have only been that way to function as a siding.
Also that a fifth (for a short distance until the 'siding' ends) line is shown to start on the Up side just south of the Oundle Road underbridge, where there is also a signal box shown, which I cannot name from memory.

So I'm thinking that the map may portray (perhaps quite accurately) some sort of temporary layout during staged P.Way rearrangement/realignments.
BZOH

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thesignalman
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by thesignalman » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:06 am

StevieG wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:24 pm
Also that a fifth (for a short distance until the 'siding' ends) line is shown to start on the Up side just south of the Oundle Road underbridge, where there is also a signal box shown, which I cannot name from memory.
I would think that is Woodstone, closed 1924. Which suggests layout shown there is a little earlier than the 1925 date of the map - it is not particularly unusual for dates to not correspond.

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: http://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling photographs: http://shop.studio433.co.uk/

cunningnLNER
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:42 am

Thanks for the ideas and the info. The situation with the mapping can be frustrating - I've had sites where the map continues to show one layout for many years even though photographic evidence clearly shows that the layout had changed - seems that the OS is very reliable - except when it isn't. I wonder if in the 50/60s when railways fell out of favour with the government and public then some people in the OS just stopped caring about theaccuracy of the rail layouts they were remapping?

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StevieG
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by StevieG » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Thanks for that John. I knew there had been a Woodstone but couldn't remember exactly where, and whether this was it.
Sounds like it only just made onto that map as, aside from publication date, it has 'Revised 1924' in the small print.

Nevertheless ""cunningnLNER""s original query over the 'Down Main' shown then as not being a through line still looks a curious situation, however temporary that it may have been. :)
BZOH

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