Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Hatfield Shed » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:47 pm

cunningnLNER wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:42 am
Thanks for the ideas and the info. The situation with the mapping can be frustrating - I've had sites where the map continues to show one layout for many years even though photographic evidence clearly shows that the layout had changed - seems that the OS is very reliable - except when it isn't. I wonder if in the 50/60s when railways fell out of favour with the government and public then some people in the OS just stopped caring about the accuracy of the rail layouts they were remapping?
I have no idea what policy was, but for my home area have accrued over the years a fair number of the same 1:25,000 OS sheets in a spread of publication and reprint dates. The notes of the 'full revision' date and 'partial revisions' - which only cover selected features, sometimes identified and sometimes not (!) - are 'interesting'. How can it be that one County Council primary school opened in 1955 is on the map, but another just two miles away opened in 1952 is not, nor any indication of the road network leading to its site? Clearly all was not consistent within the OS process, and what's printed should be regarded as indicative but not definitive.

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thesignalman
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by thesignalman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:23 am

Niether total or partial revisions will equate exactly to the date given, that's just the publication date.

Remember that these maps were not made with computers and satellite data - a small group of surveyers would circulate the area over a long period - since the previous map was issued - noting details as they got to them. Railways must have got more and more difficult to survey accurately - I expect in Victorian days they probably wandered around the track measuring things as they went but I doubt they were allowed to do that in the 1950s. So everything track-wise must have surely been done from outside a boundary fence or from bridges,or from aerial photographs which were not the best quality images in those days. Either way, some guesswork must have been needed.

And, in mapping terms, did it really matter to anybody?

John
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cunningnLNER
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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:33 am

Good point - just makes it harder to get the layout right ;-)

Cheers
Neil

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:29 pm

Meanwhile at the north end of the station I vaguely remember the North box being there on my occasional return trips down from Kings Cross on Saturday afternoons around 1971-72 but on one particular Saturday afternoon and it must have been right at the end before the North box was closed for good the box was manned on that particular Saturday afternoon by a signalman who appeared to be signalling trains with a set of red & green hand held flags from the box?. On that particular afternoon all the North box semaphore signals had been removed from there individual signal posts including the Crescent Junction Up fast line distant signal that had stood beneath the North box Up fast line home signal (no.39) just north of the box so I presume it was around early 1973 when Peterborough Power Box was being commissioned that weekend.

Peterborough North Box track diagram-http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/upload ... 635421.jpg

Mickey

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by cunningnLNER » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:31 am

Thanks to 'Hatfield Shed' for the book recommendation - I just got it and it is a great help (and spawned some re-work too).

Mickey - thanks for the recollection and the layout - do you know how the 'up goods departure line' was used in operation in steam days? Was it 'compulsory' for all up goods to go via this line or did they get sent on the up slow (to the West of the station) in preference?

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:24 am

cunningnLNER wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:31 am
Mickey - thanks for the recollection and the layout - do you know how the 'up goods departure line' was used in operation in steam days? Was it 'compulsory' for all up goods to go via this line or did they get sent on the up slow (to the West of the station) in preference?
The short answer is I don't know I wasn't familiar with the operational workings either side of Peterborough North station at any time although having said that I am guessing that any trains that came out of New England shed & yards and went passed Eastfield box along the Up Goods line as far as Westwood Junction box could then either continue along the Up Goods Departure line as far as Spital Junction box and then could be 'turned out' off the Up Goods Departure line onto the Up Fast line or they could have continued on passed Spital Junction box along the Up Goods Departure line a short distance further as far as Peterborough North box and then be 'turned out' onto the up the Fast line at the North box and then through the North station or the other way could have been they were 'turned out' off the Up Goods line at Westwood Junction box and then ran along the Up Fast line towards Peterborough North station.

As for using the Up Slow line as an 'Avoiding line' I presume certain 'slow' Goods trains were routed that way but a fast running Goods train running along the Up Fast line heading south through Peterborough North station I presume may have been run straight through Peterborough North station knowing how GN/LNER signalmen would usually give a fast running Goods train 'a fast line run' if they could.

Even though it's only a model it's a pretty good model at that and shows the view of the main line just to the north of Peterborough North station looking southwards in the area of Spital Bridge Junction. A WD Austerity 2-8-0 is seen on the Down Goods line with the Up Slow line next to it that could be used as an 'Avoiding line' by-passing the North station completely. The line next to the Up Slow line with a platform in the distance was named the 'Excursion line' according to the Peterborough North track diagram.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/upload ... 284312.jpg

Mickey
Last edited by Mickey on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:54 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by R. pike » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:35 am

Mickey wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:29 pm
Meanwhile at the north end of the station I vaguely remember the North box being there on my occasional return trips down from Kings Cross on Saturday afternoons around 1971-72 but on one particular Saturday afternoon and it must have been right at the end before the North box was closed for good the box was manned on that particular Saturday afternoon by a signalman who appeared to be signalling trains with a set of red & green hand held flags from the box?. On that particular afternoon all the North box semaphore signals had been removed from there individual signal posts including the Crescent Junction Up fast line distant signal that had stood beneath the North box Up fast line home signal (no.39) just north of the box so I presume it was around early 1973 when Peterborough Power Box was being commissioned that weekend.

Peterborough North Box track diagram-http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/upload ... 635421.jpg

Mickey
There was some oddball goings on towards the end mechanical signalling...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/37917246215/

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:18 pm

A unidentified A3 heading a 12 coach Down express eases passed Crescent Junction box south of Peterborough North station probably in the late 1950s.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... .ITvYC44F2...

Mickey

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by StevieG » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm

Mickey, regarding giving freight 'a fast line run' don't forget that there was a permanent 20mph restriction on the two Mains through the station and at each end, though going via the Up Slow was probably 15 or possibly less, and to or from each end of it involved crossing the Down Main. But, depending on circumstances, it could've been a good place to sideline a goods train from New England needing to await a margin to go further.
Incidentally, box names - from Eastfield box, IF there was a connection straight onto the second ot both Up lines it would probably have been under Westwood Jn. box, but I suspect trains would more normally have kept out of the way, on to "Spital Junction" box (I think it was the nearby box on the 'Midland' lines that was named Spital Bridge).
As to the working of the Up Goods Departure line to P. North box, I also don't actually know the answer, but things look rather strange on the PN box diagram compared to numerous Goods line signal box arrangements that I've known, what with all those Annetts Lock-equipped ground frames, & and their facing connections, released by Spital Jn. with some that were so very close to points and sigs. worked by PN.
BZOH

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:46 am

StevieG wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm
Mickey, regarding giving freight 'a fast line run' don't forget that there was a permanent 20mph restriction on the two Mains through the station and at each end,...
Yes point taken Stevie and I suppose keeping a 'fast Goods' running along the Up fast line heading south through Peterborough North station where there was a 20mph permanent speed restriction through the station and southwards passed Crescent Junction and across the river Nene bridge seems a bit pointless although I am guessing that many former GN/LNER signalmen would 'if they could' prefer to run a 'fast Goods fast line/main line' rather than running it along the Slow line if they could?. (Harry Fitzgerald at Welwyn Garden City most definitely would).
StevieG post_id_125031 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:39 pm
Incidentally, box names - from Eastfield box, IF there was a connection straight onto the second ot both Up lines it would probably have been under Westwood Jn. box, but I suspect trains would more normally have kept out of the way, on to "Spital Junction" box (I think it was the nearby box on the 'Midland' lines that was named Spital Bridge).
I must have some sort of 'mental blockage' regarding Spital Junction and Spital Bridge Junction because I could never remember which one was which?.

Mickey

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by R. pike » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:14 pm

Add into the equation this rather unusual indicator on the Up Main near Peterborough North box. It was sited to be available to train approaching on the Up Main or from the rather tortuous Up Goods Departure Line with it's ground frames etc.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/25104393935/

This indicator gave advice of the route set at Crescent Junction in the manner of an unglorified splitting distant for CJ62 or 65 with CJ63 off. If the route was set to the Up Goods at CJ the indicator displayed 'G' or if set for the Up Main it displayed 'M'

This gave crews of southbound departing freights a clue as to the route they were taking and how far ahead the route was set and clear. It perhaps should have been a proper splitting distant and looks to have been done on the cheap.

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by Mickey » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:52 pm

R. pike wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:14 pm
Add into the equation this rather unusual indicator on the Up Main near Peterborough North box. It was sited to be available to train approaching on the Up Main or from the rather tortuous Up Goods Departure Line with it's ground frames etc.

This indicator gave advice of the route set at Crescent Junction in the manner of an unglorified splitting distant for CJ62 or 65 with CJ63 off. If the route was set to the Up Goods at CJ the indicator displayed 'G' or if set for the Up Main it displayed 'M'

This gave crews of southbound departing freights a clue as to the route they were taking and how far ahead the route was set and clear. It perhaps should have been a proper splitting distant and looks to have been done on the cheap.
I presume the indicator was used because the route via the Up Main line passing Peterborough North box was a relatively low speed route with a permanent 20mph speed restriction running through the station that carried on passed Crescent Junction?. Crescent Junction box had a conventional semaphore distant signal beneath Peterborough North box Up Main line home signal no.39 on a bracket post near to the North box.

Below Spital Junction track diagram and it appears a fairly complicated layout at first glance.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... .Cy8WEuQu0...

On reflection I am assuming that maybe(?) Goods trains and possibly light engines heading south from Westwood Junction along the Up Goods Departure line would possibly be 'turned out' off the Up Goods Departure line at Spital Junction box rather than carrying on along the Up Goods Departure line and being turned out onto the Up Main line at Peterborough North box because as Stevie has noted and how Richard has pointed out that it was a bit of a 'tortuous route' travelling along the Up Goods Departure line between Spital Junction box & Peterborough North box.

Mickey

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by R. pike » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:28 pm

Spital Junction and Peterborough North..
Spital Junction (2).jpg
Peterborough North (LNER)(lr).jpg
I imagine despite the route being a little awkward it must have had it's advantages as you could get a freight almost up to the down main platform and have it ready to go. Spital Junction could do a simultaneous move onto the Up Slow too.

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by R. pike » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:46 pm

Spital Bridge for Mickey..
PC044292a.jpg
This was on 'The other side' on the Midland Lines. Best not talk about them. <G>

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Re: Track layout on south approach to Peterborough in the 50s & 60s

Post by R. pike » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:54 pm

The first mention of Up Goods Departure is back at Spital Junction Ground Frame..
Spital Junction Ground Frame (1).jpg

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