Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

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Mickey

Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Mickey » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:43 am

Mickey wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:40 pm
Derek_Revell wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:44 am
Thanks for filling in the blanks with the Telegraph Codes, makes a little more sense now, although Arlesey and Ashwell having the same code AL is a little bit confusing, I'm guessing Arlesey Box shut and the code was transferred to Ashwell, as maybe not all boxes had telegraph receiving apparatus.
Derek I would be more inclined to assume that the AL telgraph code is more likely to have been for Arlesey s/box rather than for Ashwell because at least from the beginning of the 1970s there wasn't a s/box at Aswell & Morden station on the Cambridge branch where as Arlesey s/box on the main line situated about halfway between Hitchin & Biggleswade didn't close until about 1976.
After thinking about the above AL telegraph code again I do now recall that AL was Arlesey because printed on an old telegraph code card pined to the wall of Welwyn Garden City box on the Sandy-Hatfield telegraph circuit Arlesey box was shown as AL.

Also an odd recollection from 45+ years ago was one afternoon in Welwyn Garden City box a signalman named Bill Taylor a relief slgnalman who was a Geordie and who worked around the Hitchin area during the early 1970s was working the box that late turn (14:00-22:00) and the s/n telegraph started 'tinkling away' YE YE YE YE YE YE YE YE YE the telegraph code for Welwyn North anyway when YE was eventually acknowledged it was by AL the telegraph code for Arlesey where the signalman at Arlesey was asking Welwyn North about a oil train that was standing on the Down goods line at Digswell waiting a path northwards beyond Hitchin.

Mickey

Dave S
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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Dave S » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:06 am

StevieG wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:48 am
And as well as for Sandy Junction (also sometimes known as 'Sandy North')
Sandy North was the box on the Down platform taken out and demolished in the 1920's (?) I've not heard the Junction with the Ox-Cam described as 'North' before, just 'Junction' or 'Wartime Junction'

Mickey

Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Mickey » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:00 pm

Dave S wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:06 am
Sandy North was the box on the Down platform taken out and demolished in the 1920's
I have seen an old photograph that features Sandy North box that was taken during the late 1880s and as you say Dave it was located on the Down platform and was similar in style to the South box located south of Sandy station and closed in 1976 but the North box was smaller in design but still had the same distinctive window sash design as many of those boxes on the Hitchin-Peterborough length once did also I did see the old LNWR box at Sandy located at the south end of the Up platform (the Down platform for the LNWR/LMS heading towards the Oxford direction) although the box was by then redundant but still standing when I saw it circa 1970.

Sandy station in December 1966 the photograph is taken from the Up platform heading towards the Cambridge direction on the Oxford-Cambridge line with the ECML running through in the background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_rai ... 6381_1.jpg

Mickey

Dave S
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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Dave S » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:30 pm

Thanks Mickey, Going off topic a little.

I've got a fair few pics of the boxes around Sandy from various sources as well as mine (1970's) the odd thing about the LNWR box on the Down Ox-Cam platform, was the ground floor brick superstructure was missing a corner as the brickwork was set back by 45 degrees.

There have been 5 boxes at Sandy plus the 2 crossing boxes (next to the flyover and adjacent to the A1) I've pics of all (just about)

Mickey

Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Mickey » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:44 pm

Dave S wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:30 pm
Thanks Mickey, Going off topic a little.

I've got a fair few pics of the boxes around Sandy from various sources as well as mine (1970's) the odd thing about the LNWR box on the Down Ox-Cam platform, was the ground floor brick superstructure was missing a corner as the brickwork was set back by 45 degrees.

There have been 5 boxes at Sandy plus the 2 crossing boxes (next to the flyover and adjacent to the A1) I've pics of all (just about)
An interesting collection Dave. Yes funny you should mention about the 45 degrees angle of the brickwork on one of the corners of the LNWR box because now that you mention it I vaguely remember seeing it when I visited the station one Sunday back in 1970 and as previously mentioned the box was by then redundant although the box door was open but I didn't have the nerve to climb up the staircase and have a look inside just in case the Sandy Station Master (or Senior railman or Leading railman a B.R. rank I presume he was called?) came out of his house and gave me a talking to!. lol ha ha ha...

Mickey

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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Dave S » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:53 pm

Mickey wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:44 pm
but I didn't have the nerve to climb up the staircase and have a look inside just in case the Sandy Station Master (or Senior railman or Leading railman a B.R. rank I presume he was called?) came out of his house and gave me a talking to!. lol ha ha ha...

Mickey
By 1970 the occupant of the GN Stationmasters house was a Railman from Biggleswade called 'Ben' (IIRC) he was Italian. The 2 Railman that I remember were Noel Cotman & Jim Lawson, Noel had a serious accident after coming off late shift in the early 70's, he was riding his Honda C50 in fog and went into a parked car. My older brother was booking clerk at the time and the Police called on him as they were trying to find 'next of kin'.

We were lucky as kids as the various signalmen would let us into the box (just inside the door so you didn't get in the way) and explain what they were doing. In return we lifted buckets of coal up the steps.

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StevieG
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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by StevieG » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:52 am

Dave S wrote:
StevieG wrote:And as well as for Sandy Junction [(also sometimes known as 'Sandy North')
Sandy North was the box on the Down platform taken out and demolished in the 1920's (?) I've not heard the Junction with the Ox-Cam described as 'North' before, just 'Junction' or 'Wartime Junction'
Thanks Dave S. Certainly I know of the old "Sandy North" as you say. It appears in quite a few 1920s and earlier photos anyway.
You say you've not heard of the later box (put in to control the ECML end of the north-west curve connection with the LNWR) being described as 'North', but although I'm thinking of a long time ago, I am equally sure that someone did call it 'North' to me : I posted the box as "sometimes known as ..." which does not imply that 'North' was ever an official name for it.
It is easily possible amongst railway staff that someone in the 1960s who had known that a box was where the curve's junction had been, or had only heard of it, could refer to it as 'North' relating to the long-lasting "Sandy" through having no knowledge of what GNR boxes were at Sandy in the 1920s.

Incidentally Mickey, you say that the GNR "North" was smaller than South. I can't categorically say that it wasn't, but I much doubt that South would have been as large as Sandy box was in our day before North was closed and its functions combined in there, and I'm sure I've seen record that both boxes had 40-lever frames : 'Our' Sandy had two 40-lever Saxby frames end-to-end [numbered 1 - 80 : and ignoring the separate A & B double-wire points levers) ] with a small width of plain floor in between them.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed as to how/from where those two 40s originated, but it is possible to form one's own conclusion !

Also, Re the AL telegraph code, AL was certainly correct for Arlesey - I've even once 'sent' to there from Welwyn North !
But AL for Ashwell, I also got from a Circuit Card 'somewhere'.
Duplication of codes did happen : - CV was for Holloway Carriage Sidings box, and Paxton: And FD was Finsbury Park No.2 and also Offord.
But I do concede that Arlesey and Ashwell were geographically much closer [directly, and by rail (via Hitchin) ] than those other sample pairs ; and although on separate routes and circuits, both came into Hitchin, increasing the possible risk of mistakes. Also I did find around the whole area, when the telegraph was still working, a very few occasions when a Card did include an error.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Mickey » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:47 am

Dave S wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:53 pm
Mickey wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:44 pm
but I didn't have the nerve to climb up the staircase and have a look inside just in case the Sandy Station Master (or Senior railman or Leading railman a B.R. rank I presume he was called?) came out of his house and gave me a talking to!. lol ha ha ha...

Mickey
By 1970 the occupant of the GN Stationmasters house was a Railman from Biggleswade called 'Ben' (IIRC) he was Italian.
The year of 1970. In those far off dim and distant days you could hang around a railway station all day and nobody would bother you no BT police or private security and not even a B.R. railman and in fact when it came to Sandy station that is in fact what actually happened I arrived at the station at around 10:00am one Sunday morning on the Down 'parly' a train formed by a Brush type 2 hauling a rake of BR Mk1s that had left Kings Cross around 8:25am that morning for either Huntingdon or Peterborough(?) where I stayed all day and eventually leaving Sandy station around 6:00pm on the early evening x2 car Cravens unit running between Huntingdon & Hitchin after hanging around the station for approximately 8 hours although I must admit I remember being starving hungry by then and wanted to get home to eat my Sunday dinner!!.

Mickey
Last edited by Mickey on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mickey

Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Mickey » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:43 am

StevieG wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:52 am
Incidentally Mickey, you say that the GNR "North" was smaller than South. I can't categorically say that it wasn't, but I much doubt that South would have been as large as Sandy box was in our day before North was closed and its functions combined in there, and I'm sure I've seen record that both boxes had 40-lever frames : 'Our' Sandy had two 40-lever Saxby frames end-to-end [numbered 1 - 80 : and ignoring the separate A & B double-wire points levers) ] with a small width of plain floor in between them.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed as to how/from where those two 40s originated, but it is possible to form one's own conclusion !
Ok Stevie I didn't realise that there had been a previous 'South box' I was under the impression that Sandy s/box that closed in 1976 and was located beside the Down goods line (or was it the Down slow line?) south of Sandy station was the original 'South box' my mistake.

Also regarding the 'Wartime Junction' north of Sandy station linking the LNER main line and the LMS Cambridge-Oxford branch line I presume that it was a fairly well used junction during WW2 because apparently there was a large military ammunition dump located at Lord's Bridge station on the Cambridge-Oxford branch towards the Cambridge end of the branch.

Below Lord's Bridge station in December 1966 about one year before complete closure on the 31st December 1967.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_ ... 6382_1.jpg

Mickey

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StevieG
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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by StevieG » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:07 pm

Mickey wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:43 am
StevieG wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:52 am
Incidentally Mickey, you say that the GNR "North" was smaller than South. I can't categorically say that it wasn't, but I much doubt that South would have been as large as Sandy box was in our day before North was closed and its functions combined in there, and I'm sure I've seen record that both boxes had 40-lever frames : 'Our' Sandy had two 40-lever Saxby frames end-to-end [numbered 1 - 80 : and ignoring the separate A & B double-wire points levers) ] with a small width of plain floor in between them.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed as to how/from where those two 40s originated, but it is possible to form one's own conclusion !
" Ok Stevie I didn't realise that there had been a previous 'South box' I was under the impression that Sandy s/box that closed in 1976 and was located beside the Down goods line (or was it the Down slow line?) south of Sandy station was the original 'South box' my mistake. .... "

My apologies now Mickey - for my words being easily capable of misinterpretation: AFAIK 'our' Sandy had been Sandy South, as you thought.
That was why I was trying to say that when 0-lever "North", on the platform, was operational, "South" with its 40-lever frame was very unlikely to have been as large as when we knew the place, and so may've been the same or a very similar size to "North".
Last edited by StevieG on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
BZOH

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R. pike
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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by R. pike » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm

I've been looking face to face at the Sandy West nameboard this afternoon, It is mounted on the old Sandy LNE Jc nameboard. I've also been looking at photo's of the Sandy North nameboard which is the same style as Sandy West. I think Sandy LNE Jc and Sandy Junc were renamed at Nationalisation. Sandy North on the platform was abolished around 1927 and Sandy South became just Sandy. Sandy Junction was added in wartime as a means of giving ECML trains access to a number of other termini and for various freight flows. All the paperwork i have for Sandy Junc calls it Sandy North.

Mickey

Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Mickey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:22 am

StevieG wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:07 pm
My apologies now Mickey - for my words being easily capable of misinterpretation: AFAIK 'our' Sandy had been Sandy South, as you thought.
That was why I was trying to say that when 0-lever "North", on the platform, was operational, "South" with its 40-lever frame was very unlikely to have been as large as when we knew the place, and so may've been the same or a very similar size to "North".
Yeah no problem Stevie although you never know for sure if there had been an earlier box at certain locations sometimes take for example Stratford Brook the long forgotten box that once was the next box along south of 'Sandy South' box that hardly anyone had heard of before?.

Mickey

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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by Dave S » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:57 am

Stratford Brook I'd never heard of that until Chris Duffell gave me a photograph of it (at a distance too) about 20 years ago. I'm still not 100% sure of the exact position of it, but within a 100'

Thanks Richard, Thats interesting to know. I've only ever known it as Jct

I bid on a Signal lamp about 5 years ago that was stamped "GN Sandy North" so obviously came from the demolished box on the Down platform, I gave up early on as it went to £800+

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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by thesignalman » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:52 am

G'day folks.

I am a bit late on duty but am a bit confused by some of the statements here on frame sizes etc. Maybe I haven't understood correctly what has been said, but anyway here is a summary of the situation:

Sandy South (second box) opened 1893, 50 levers. Enlarged to 82 levers (two of which were double-wire turnover levers) 1927 when renamed Sandy. Panel provided 1977, box closed late 1977.

Sandy North opened 1874 with 45 levers, new lever frame of 55 levers in 1897. Closed 1927.

Sandy North Junction opened 1940 with 18 levers. Closed 1962.

Best regards,

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/

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Re: Signalbox Track Layout Drawings found

Post by StevieG » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:23 pm

thesignalman wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:52 am
G'day folks.

I am a bit late on duty but am a bit confused by some of the statements here on frame sizes etc. Maybe I haven't understood correctly what has been said, but anyway here is a summary of the situation:

Sandy South (second box) opened 1893, 50 levers. Enlarged to 82 levers (two of which were double-wire turnover levers) 1927 when renamed Sandy. Panel provided 1977, box closed late 1977.

Sandy North opened 1874 with 45 levers, new lever frame of 55 levers in 1897. Closed 1927.

Sandy North Junction opened 1940 with 18 levers. Closed 1962.

Best regards,

John
Thanks for the excellent clarification John : The perils of going only by memory of past observing and reading, and relating the railwaymen's equivalent of 'old wives tales' !
The tit-bit of mine about the main 'frame' of 80 levers in the 1927 incarnation of the 1893 box still holds just about good though, in that it appeared to consist of two 40s with a gap of flat floor in between. I did not view downstairs however, so can't discount the possibility of it being one frame somehow without a few quadrants in the middle.
BZOH

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