Re-signalling 1970s KX-HT + Hertford Loop

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Mickey
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:16 pm

S&T wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:03 pm
Mickey wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:30 pm
3.As regards to the 'temporary' NX panel at Finsbury Park the one I am referring to was located in a 'Portacabin' type of building and was located on the Down Canonbury line platform.
Is that the platform on the west side of the station that was later demolished (and, if I recall correctly, may now be being re-built)?
Thanks
S&T
Yes I believe it was. I remember the 'Portacabin' building being there and was being used as a 'temporary s/box' this must have been towards the end of 1974 around October maybe just after Finsbury Park No.3 & Finsbury Park No.5 had both closed also I vaguely recall trying to get a look inside it from the open door which appeared to have a small number of people in it which I assumed was a couple of signalmen and maybe a Signalling Inspector or S&T staff it could have been straight after the commissioning weekend?.

Mickey
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:28 pm

R. pike wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:11 pm
If i take Hitchin South as an example i have a significant sized file of locking alterations carried out as stageworks prior to the resignalling. For each stage there will be dog charts, locking tables, layouts and pull plates with possibly detection tables. I'll have similar documents for many other boxes along the line. It would be a considerable task to scan all of it but it does need doing. I do have some stagework circuit diagrams but that is a minute amount compared to the mechanical stuff.
Regards to Hitchin South I could be wrong but I am not sure that the box that people knew as 'Hitchin South' during the 1950s-1970s was the original box?.

There is an old piece of film footage on this forum that shows Hitchin South for about 3 seconds and the box that is shown in the film which appeared to have been filmed sometime during the 1930s shows the box more or less in the same location (on the Down side of the running lines with the tall brick arch bridge just beyond it) but the box staircase is at the south end of the box (London end) and not the north end (country end) plus the overall look of the box doesn't look that similar to the 1950s-1970s box?.

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:51 pm

Mickey wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:28 pm
(on the Down side of the running lines with the tall brick arch bridge just beyond it)
Wasn't that called 'Benslow Bridge'? Later demolished as part of the 'Operation Live Wire' electrification IIRC.

Mickey
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:00 pm

S&T wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:51 pm
Mickey wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:28 pm
(on the Down side of the running lines with the tall brick arch bridge just beyond it)
Wasn't that called 'Benslow Bridge'? Later demolished as part of the 'Operation Live Wire' electrification IIRC.
It could well have been S&T although I haven't been to Hitchin station since about 1975. I have a memory of being on Hitchin Up platform at the time that the metal OHL masts were been dropped into there individual concrete bases through the station and I am fairly certain that both Hitchin South & Hitchin Yard boxes were both still there and working which I believe was around October time of the year probably in 1974.

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thesignalman
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by thesignalman » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:23 pm

S&T wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:03 pm
Not even heard of these.....clearly I have more research to do!
You might find these publications a huge help:
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/bookregister.php

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: http://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling photographs: http://shop.studio433.co.uk/

Mickey
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:01 pm

S&T you was around the Kings Cross area during the 1980s I presume you visited that curious little brick building called Freight Terminal Junction located in Kings Cross Goods yard. Freight Terminal Junction opened when Goods And Mineral Junction box closed in October 1975 and was there for around 9 or 10 years before it to was closed and demolished.

There was some previous posts regarding Freight Terminal Junction on the forum a few years ago and apparently virtually all the movements that the small panel controlled were 'slotted' with Kings Cross PSB. I once knew a guy back in the late 1980s who started his signalling career at the box before moving on.

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:13 pm

Mickey wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:01 pm
S&T you was around the Kings Cross area during the 1980s I presume you visited that curious little brick building called Freight Terminal Junction located in Kings Cross Goods yard. Freight Terminal Junction opened when Goods And Mineral Junction box closed in October 1975 and was there for around 9 or 10 years before it to was closed and demolished.

There was some previous posts regarding Freight Terminal Junction on the forum a few years ago and apparently virtually all the movements that the small panel controlled were 'slotted' with Kings Cross PSB.
Yes, Mickey....I recall FTJ well. Not too many movements by then though IIRC and already the whole area was becoming a bit overgrown. I remember also doing some work in the equipment room at the base of the North London Line over-bridge at Belle Isle and a Class 08 came off at the points near to the relay room which was the lead into the yard / link up to St Pancras area. The re-railing team were very impressive.
Last edited by S&T on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:38 pm

I know this is a big 'ask'.....but does anybody have access to the Supplementary Notice of Signalling Alterations associated with the Stageworks between Kings Cross and Hitchin (and Hertford Loop) in the 1970s. I am especially looking for signalling notices associated with the abolishment of the remaining signal boxes along the line and the introduction of both temporary NX panels and the later full migration from local operation to full KX PSB operation.

I have looked on both the 's-r-s' and 'signalling notices' web sites and there is No.46 (Wood Green to Potters Bar) which has been scanned and can be downloaded as a pdf file. Others would appear available but the files can not be downloaded.

If anyone has copies of these signalling notices along the line at that time period and would be prepared to scan them into pdf, I would be most grateful.

Thanks all
S&T

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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:55 pm

S&T wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:38 pm
I know this is a big 'ask'.....but does anybody have access to the Supplementary Notice of Signalling Alterations associated with the Stageworks between Kings Cross and Hitchin (and Hertford Loop) in the 1970s. I am especially looking for signalling notices associated with the abolishment of the remaining signal boxes along the line and the introduction of both temporary NX panels and the later full migration from local operation to full KX PSB operation.

I have looked on both the 's-r-s' and 'signalling notices' web sites and there is No.46 (Wood Green to Potters Bar) which has been scanned and can be downloaded as a pdf file. Others would appear available but the files can not be downloaded.

If anyone has copies of these signalling notices along the line at that time period and would be prepared to scan them into pdf, I would be most grateful.
Some old B.R. re-signalling notices are available 'on line' because I have seen the 2nd Stage Commissioning Work notice for the Welwyn Garden City-Woolmer Green-Langley Junction section in October 1973 a notice by the way that I actually remember seeing and reading at the time when it was originally published several weeks before the actual work was carried out.

Also recently I saw the B.R. re-signalling notice again on line for the Wood Green-New Barnet section which dealt with the closure of both New Southgate & Cemetery s/boxes in February 1973 and again I remember seeing and reading the published notice several weeks before the commissioning work was actually carried out.

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Mickey wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:55 pm
Some old B.R. re-signalling notices are available 'on line' because I have seen the 2nd Stage Commissioning Work notice for the Welwyn Garden City-Woolmer Green-Langley Junction section in October 1973 a notice by the way that I actually remember seeing and reading at the time when it was originally published several weeks before the actual work was carried out.

Also recently I saw the B.R. re-signalling notice again on line for the Wood Green-New Barnet section which dealt with the closure of both New Southgate & Cemetery s/boxes in February 1973 and again I remember seeing and reading the published notice several weeks before the commissioning work was actually carried out.
Mickey......I found them !!!! They were on the fabulous s.r.s. site.....clearly I wasn't looking hard enough the first time round. Thank you to those on that site who have taken the time to preserve such detail and make it available to others.

This will give me the detail I need to construct the overall time line of events etc.
Cheers
S&T

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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 pm

Another two re-signalling notices that I remember seeing now that I think about it more was the Potters Bar-Marshmoor-Hatfield No.1 section notice from November 1972 when Marshmoor box was closed and TCB was extended northwards on all 4 running lines from Potters Bar to Hatfield No.1 box because at the time that commissioning work took place I was in Welwyn Garden City box and also I remember seeing the Hatfield-Welwyn Garden City section notice in late May 1973 when Hatfield No.1 was closed and a small NX panel was commissioned in Hatfield No.2 and TCB was extended northwards on all 4 running lines with Welwyn Garden City box.

The interesting thing about these re-signalling notices was that they featured all the running lines and sidings connections and also included points & crossings plus all signals and there signal numbers as well as a 'time line' for the decommissioning & commissioning work usually over a weekend.

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StevieG
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by StevieG » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:51 am

S&T wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:38 pm
I know this is a big 'ask'.....but does anybody have access to the Supplementary Notice of Signalling Alterations associated with the Stageworks between Kings Cross and Hitchin (and Hertford Loop) in the 1970s. I am especially looking for signalling notices associated with the abolishment of the remaining signal boxes along the line and the introduction of both temporary NX panels and the later full migration from local operation to full KX PSB operation.

I have looked on both the 's-r-s' and 'signalling notices' web sites and there is No.46 (Wood Green to Potters Bar) which has been scanned and can be downloaded as a pdf file. Others would appear available but the files can not be downloaded.

If anyone has copies of these signalling notices along the line at that time period and would be prepared to scan them into pdf, I would be most grateful.

Thanks all
S&T
I am not in a position to provide you with scans S&T, but if you look again at the BR(E) 1970-1991 section of signallingnotices.org.uk
http://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/not ... aps=&coll= ,
then, in case of help, I can tell you, but from memory so all subject to details in the Notices that (not forgetting that at least some of the individual Notices' dates listed therein say 'Date Issued', which sounds like not being the precise dates of implementation) : -

Notice ... Boxes ..................................................... Panel substituted..........
No. ... ... Closed .................................................... for frame at ...... ............ Remarks

9 .......... Oakleigh Park, New Barnet South ................... New Barnet North (IFS) ..... Notice had a May 1970 implementation date,
................................................................................................................but work postponed to June 1970, weekend
................................................................................................................of Sun.14th I think.

26 ......... (None) ................................................... Hertford North (IFS)
38 ......... Palmers Green - Enfield Chase and ................. Gordon Hill (NX)
...............Crews Hill, Cuffley, Bayford.

40 ......... Watton at Stone ....................................... (None)
43 ......... Marshmoor .............................................. Potters Bar (new NX replaced old NX)
46 ......... New Southgate, Cemetery ........................... ?possibly when New Barnet North NX replaced IFS?
52 & 56 .. [ Both entitled "Finsbury Park and Wood Green" : I THINK 52 was Down side lines, 56 Up - the following info. is based on that] -
- 52 ....... (None) ................................................... (None) ........................ I believe this was reduction and realignment of ............................................................................................................Down running lines.
- 56 ....... Harringay West Station ('Passenger'), Hornsey 2 .. (None) ........................ I believe this was reduction and realignment of Up ...........................................................................................................running lines.

53 ......... Hatfield No.1 ........................................... Hatfield No.2 (NX) ......... ( Renamed Hatfield )
59 ......... Welwyn North .......................................... Welwyn Garden City (NX)
61 ......... Woolmer Green, Knebworth ......................... (None)
63 ......... Stevenage North ....................................... Langley (NX)
66 ......... Ashburton Grove, Finsbury Park No.1 .............. Finsbury Park No.2 (IFS)
68 ......... Wood Green No.1, No.2, Bounds Green ........... Wood Green No.4 (NX) ..... ( Renamed Wood Green )
70 ......... Harringay Up Goods .................................. (None) ......................... Hornsey Up Goods no longer block post but
...............................................................................................................retained as large covered 'ground' frame.

72 ......... Hitchin South, Hitchin Yard ......................... Cambridge Junction (NX) ...( Renamed Hitchin )
75 ......... Finsbury Park No.3, No.5,
................Ferme Park North Down, Hornsey No.1 ......... (None) ........................ ( Fins. Park NX panel in Portakabin )

82 ......... (None) .................................................. (None) ........................ [ For NC Line (Finsbury Park - Moorgate) ]
87 ......... (KX IFS) ................................................. (None)
90 ......... (None) .................................................. (None)
(Info. re stages beyond Hitchin not shown above.)

Some smaller stages / changes (e.g . Holloway), and transfer of control from 'local' panels to KX, would not have had separate signalling Notices, but would've been covered by Section 'C' items in the Weekly Operating Notice.

So closure of several boxes would not have been in the content of the Signalling Notices: These boxes would probably have included such as Goods & Mineral, Holloway South Up, South Down, North Down, Finsbury Park Nos. 2, 4 & 6, and all those which ended up with only what became the Relay Room-located satellite panels.
BZOH

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S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:30 pm

Thanks StevieG......I've now got all the mentioned SN's.
StevieG wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:51 am
Some smaller stages / changes (e.g . Holloway), and transfer of control from 'local' panels to KX, would not have had separate signalling Notices, but would've been covered by Section 'C' items in the Weekly Operating Notice.
I guess that's my next task then.....finding the relevant WON's !

Thanks for your help StevieG.
S&T

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StevieG
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by StevieG » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:59 pm

.... S&T,
Beware using the term SN for (re-)signalling Notices too freely.
The WONs for our area were designated SN [South, great Northern : (Earlier just N) ], as opposed to SE, NS, NN, etc. for other Eastern Region area WONs.
BZOH

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Mickey
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Back in 1975 I managed to visit Gordon Hill box one day for about an hour although now over 40 years on I can't remember how this visit came about?.

The small box had a NX panel at that time and worked TCB on the Up & Down lines with Hertford North box to the north and TCB on the Up & Down lines with Bounds Green box to the south. The train descriptions were sent and received via a single stroke block bell built inside the panel and were operated by the signalman by two separate small buttons in the panel face with one button being for Hertford North box and the other button being for Bounds Green box.

The box it self was located at the south end of Gordon Hill station standing just off the Up platform. Also at that time there was a small bay platform in use that stood along side the Up platform and was used by the odd morning or evening weekday 'peak hour' train that either departed or arrived at Gordon Hill for or form either Kings Cross or Moorgate.

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