Re-signalling 1970s KX-HT + Hertford Loop

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S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:05 pm

Question re Finsbury Park no2.
The statement (below) taken from the SN66, it obviously references the new IFS panel being installed as part of this stageworks.....but it states that FP no2 will be 're-opened'. I think this is just wording.....the fact that, as part of this works, it closes as a mechanical box and re-opens at the same date as an IFS controlled box. Is that correct? Or, is it suggesting that the box had closed as a mechanical box sometime earlier and is be re-opened again? I can't find any reference to the box being closed prior to this date.

BETWEEN FINSBURY PARK NO.2 - CANONBURY - HOLLOWAY: REMODELLING AND RESIGNALLING
During the period of this work from Friday to Monday, 7 to 10 June, 1974 the signal box at Finsbury Park
No.1 will be abolished together with all points and signals worked therefrom. New colour light signalling
together with full track circuiting wiII be installed, controlled by a new paneI in Finsbury Park No.2
signal box, which will be re-opened and the existing facilities at Finsbury Park No.3 signal boxes.


S&T

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StevieG
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by StevieG » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:24 pm

You've prompted the merest hint of a possible memory fragment with your question S&T.
I've a feeling that No.2 was taken out of use at a different date, maybe only a week or three earlier, probably to enable the conversion works at a more leisurely pace than achieving it over a single weekend.
If so, taking the box out of use might well have needed only the publication of an item simple enough to have come out in Section C of the WON.
I don't recall all the other detail of the area/time, but as abolition of Ashburton Grove box isn't mentioned in your extract of Signalling notice 66, it seems that must have also happened at some other time; maybe at the same time as No.2 was temporarily closed.
BZOH

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S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:09 pm

StevieG wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:24 pm
I don't recall all the other detail of the area/time, but as abolition of Ashburton Grove box isn't mentioned in your extract of Signalling notice 66, it seems that must have also happened at some other time; maybe at the same time as No.2 was temporarily closed.
Yes, I noted that as well StevieG. I always thought that Ashburton Grove was abolished at that same time as Finsbury Park no1.....but it appears not based on SN66.

So two questions for those that can remember:
1. When did Ashburton Grove get abolished?
2. What was the date that Finsbury Park no2 was temporarily closed prior to its re-opening?

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:18 pm

In addition to the questions above.....

What date was Hitchin Yard signal box abolished. I thought it was abolished as part of SN72 8-10 Feb 75. However, SN 72 only mentions the fact that Hitchin South box is abolished and signalling control transferred to a new NX panel located in Cambridge Junction box (which was renamed Hitchin at the same time). No mention of Hitchin Yard changes.

Perhaps Hitchin Yard was also abolished later as part of a WON. I don't have access to any Part C WONs so unable to find out more.

Any information on Hitchin Yard (and Ashburton Grove) specific abolishment dates greatly received.

Thanks
S&T

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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by StevieG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:30 pm

S&T wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:18 pm
I " .... I thought it was abolished as part of SN72 8-10 Feb 75. However, SN 72 only mentions the fact that Hitchin South box is abolished and signalling control transferred to a new NX panel located in Cambridge Junction box (which was renamed Hitchin at the same time). No mention of Hitchin Yard changes. .... "
Yard box went a little while before the main resignalling, S&T.
The Up and Down sides of the signalling in the immediate area of Yard's points were done separately IIRC.
I forget which side was altered first, though I think the ladder xover slips from the Fasts back to the DS and Goods Shed were the first points to go, but that may be a red herring.
What I certainly recall was Yard ceasing to signal the Down lines with colour-lights commissioned at the north end of the station, where K697 and 699 are now, controlled by Cambridge Junction (before the main resignalling), prefixed 'J',
(and which then became HT697 and 699, I feel sure : I know that the current K699 is not that original one, but the bracket structure of 697 under the platform canopy just might be.)
BZOH

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thesignalman
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by thesignalman » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 am

S&T wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:05 pm
Question re Finsbury Park no2.
The statement (below) taken from the SN66, it obviously references the new IFS panel being installed as part of this stageworks.....but it states that FP no2 will be 're-opened'. I think this is just wording.....the fact that, as part of this works, it closes as a mechanical box and re-opens at the same date as an IFS controlled box. Is that correct? Or, is it suggesting that the box had closed as a mechanical box sometime earlier and is be re-opened again? I can't find any reference to the box being closed prior to this date.

BETWEEN FINSBURY PARK NO.2 - CANONBURY - HOLLOWAY: REMODELLING AND RESIGNALLING
During the period of this work from Friday to Monday, 7 to 10 June, 1974 the signal box at Finsbury Park
No.1 will be abolished together with all points and signals worked therefrom. New colour light signalling
together with full track circuiting wiII be installed, controlled by a new paneI in Finsbury Park No.2
signal box, which will be re-opened and the existing facilities at Finsbury Park No.3 signal boxes.
Yes, No2 box was "temporarily" closed 22/9/72 and re-opened 9/9/74. Final abolition was 13/9/75.

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/

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thesignalman
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by thesignalman » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:50 am

S&T wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:09 pm
1. When did Ashburton Grove get abolished?
May 1974

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:59 pm

thesignalman wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:50 am
S&T wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:09 pm
1. When did Ashburton Grove get abolished?
May 1974
Excellent....thanks John
thesignalman wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 am
Yes, No2 box was "temporarily" closed 22/9/72 and re-opened 9/9/74. Final abolition was 13/9/75.
Now the FP2 re-oening is strange then John.....as SN66 talks about 09 June 1974 for re-opening, but you have a date of 09 September 1974 for the re-opening.
S&T wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:05 pm
BETWEEN FINSBURY PARK NO.2 - CANONBURY - HOLLOWAY: REMODELLING AND RESIGNALLING
During the period of this work from Friday to Monday, 7 to 10 June, 1974 the signal box at Finsbury Park
No.1 will be abolished together with all points and signals worked therefrom. New colour light signalling
together with full track circuiting wiII be installed, controlled by a new paneI in Finsbury Park No.2
signal box, which will be re-opened and the existing facilities at Finsbury Park No.3 signal boxes.
Do you have a WON or SN which relates to the September re-opening date John?

Many thanks
S&T

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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by thesignalman » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:17 pm

S&T wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:59 pm
Do you have a WON or SN which relates to the September re-opening date John?

Sorry - that was a slip of the finger. I have 9-JUN-74 on my card-index.
My sources are long forgotten, but that fits as the Sunday of the period in your notice. I worked on the patch until 1973 so it isn't from personal notes/observation in the way the temporary closure probably was. Not that I can find my diaries from that time now . . . its a long time ago!

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/

S&T
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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:56 pm

thesignalman wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:17 pm
Sorry - that was a slip of the finger. I have 9-JUN-74 on my card-index.
Thank you for the clarification John. That all fits with dates and changes now.
I appreciate your input.

Mickey

Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HN + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:24 pm

I didn't like what they done to Harringay Up Goods box by putting the Up fast & Up slow lines under it's control after Harringay (passenger box) closed in August 1973 (Hornsey no.2 signalling the Up fast & Up slow lines only had already closed around June 1973) and also they rationalised some of Harringay Up Goods track & signalling at the same time as well.

On the Down lines at the same time on the closure of Harringay (passenger box) Finsbury Park no.5 worked two new separate semaphore I.B. signals on the Down fast & Down slow (former no.1) lines with Hornsey no.1s distant signals beneath both home signals with both I.B. signals being carried on a temporary large metal bracket post signal just south of Harringay station near to where the former Harringay (passenger box) Down lines home signals were situated on a old wooden bracket post signal.

Mickey

Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HT + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm

From memory on the GN suburban route out of Kings Cross both Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down boxes were the last two mechanical boxes to close in the London area and I believe they both closed in August 1976. In the GN Electrification newspaper called Live Wire that was given out free to commuters along the GN suburban route between Kings Cross & Royston during the mid 1970s in one copy it showed a picture of Holloway South Down box Down Goods line semaphore home signal with the caption 'The last semaphore signal' is to be abolished as part of the route modernisation of the GN suburban route.

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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HT + Hertford Loop

Post by S&T » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:32 am

Mickey wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm
From memory on the GN suburban route out of Kings Cross both Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down boxes were the last two mechanical boxes to close in the London area and I believe they both closed in August 1976.
That fits my understanding Mickey......both boxes transferred to Holloway NX operation in Aug '76, then very soon after all Holloway NX operation migrated to KX PSB. I wonder what the logic was that resulted in the original boxes being retained for so long (compared with others).....was it to do with the renewal of the ex Goods traffic fly-over and change to suburban traffic......not sure when that took place?
Mickey wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm
In the GN Electrification newspaper called Live Wire
Now....copies of these I would love to see. I have only managed to find one such issue. If anyone knows if they are available on the inter-web somewhere, please let me know.

Cheers

Mickey

Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HT + Hertford Loop

Post by Mickey » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:16 am

S&T wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:32 am
Mickey wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm
In the GN Electrification newspaper called Live Wire
Now....copies of these I would love to see. I have only managed to find one such issue. If anyone knows if they are available on the inter-web somewhere, please let me know.
Yes I wouldn't mind seeing a few of those old Live Wire's again myself. From memory Live Wire first appeared sometime around 1973(?) and was given away free to commuters along the inner & outer suburban routes out of Kings Cross to Hitchin & Royston and including the Hertford branch and gave the commuters irregular up dates of re-signalling & electrification work that was going on along the route as well as other major works projects that were on going such as the building of the Welwyn flyover and the 'new route' from Finsbury Park down to Drayton Park and eventually Moorgate and a number of other projects as well.

Also thinking again regarding the signalling circa 1975 was when I did a short stint as a secondman at Kings Cross during the 1974-75 period I remember that if I was the secondman on the 'Cambridge Buffet' for example during the summer of 1975 the only semaphore signals that we would see along the Down fast line on route to Cambridge from Kings Cross was Holloway North Down's Down fast line home & starter and then the next semaphore signal we would see was at Hitchin South the inner home signals on the bracket post that read Down fast line & Down fast to Down slow line plus also there was still several semaphore signals around Hitchin Yard & Cambridge Junction and along the Cambridge branch at Letchworth, Baldock, Royston, Shepreth, Foxton & Shepreth Branch Junction on the GE.

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Re: Re-signalling 1970s KX-HT + Hertford Loop

Post by R. pike » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:00 pm


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