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York in the 1930s

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:00 pm
by 60048
Evening all,
I hope I am posting this in the right place. I am looking to do some research on York station in the 1930s - workings, freight operations, station operations, search out some images etc. Im doing a general and ongoing search around the web, but it occurred to me that those on here, being far more knowledgable might be able to point me in the right direction with regards books etc?

Its the period from the late 1920s, through to the first year of the Gresley A4s - ie mid-1930s. Any help would be appreciated.

One key question, that somebody may already know, is would LMS traction have worked into York in the 1930s, and if so, what types of locos would have been involved, and would that have been both passenger and goods traffic? I presume any such locos working in from Wakefield, Normanton or Leeds areas would have undergone an engine change if they were venturing north to Newcastle/Teeside or Scarborough area?

Rich

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:38 pm
by Hatfield Shed
The LMS had running rights into York over a former NER line, passenger and goods, and I should think all their principal main line traction other than the pacifics found its way there regularly. It was the engine change point with the LNER for trains working forward on LNER lines.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:41 am
by Pyewipe Junction
The LMS even had an ex-Midland loco depot at York, which was subsumed into 50A after nationalisation. Traffic came off the South Yorkshire Joint from the south as well as from Normanton, so locos in early LMS days would have ranged from ex-L&Y types such as Hughes 4-6-0s to Midland types such as 4P and 2P 4-4-0s. Later on, of course, Jubilees were quite common on cross-country expresses from Bristol and other places. I believe the LMS shed at York had a small allocation of 4-4-0s and 3F Jintys. Not sure what types handled freight duties, but we can assume the usual suspects, ie ex-Midland/LMS 4F 0-6-0s etc.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:45 am
by 60048
Chaps,
That’s great. Many thanks. I had assumed they would visit, but had forgotten about the former Midland shed. Does anyone know the type of rolling stock used on local services, while we’re on the subject? Ihave Steve Banks superb book on the long distance workings, but I am assuming Leeds/Sheffield area local/regional services would have been former Midland/LMS types, while Harrogate, Scarborough, Pickering, Selby, Hull would presumably have been NER/LNER types, or the LNER railcars? Looking in Yeadon, there were some allocated to the area.

Rich

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:21 am
by Hatfield Shed
Pyewipe Junction wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:41 am
... Not sure what types handled freight duties, but we can assume the usual suspects, ie ex-Midland/LMS 4F 0-6-0s etc.
Even a Garratt has been known to visit the area, well known colour photo of same.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:38 am
by Pyewipe Junction
60048 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:45 am
Chaps,
That’s great. Many thanks. I had assumed they would visit, but had forgotten about the former Midland shed. Does anyone know the type of rolling stock used on local services, while we’re on the subject? Ihave Steve Banks superb book on the long distance workings, but I am assuming Leeds/Sheffield area local/regional services would have been former Midland/LMS types, while Harrogate, Scarborough, Pickering, Selby, Hull would presumably have been NER/LNER types, or the LNER railcars? Looking in Yeadon, there were some allocated to the area.

Rich
I doubt that the LMS would have been allowed to operate local services from Leeds to York as it would probably been against the terms of their running rights agreement with the LNER. Ditto Normanton to York, although services originating on LMS territory would have been OK. Sheffield to York via the SYJ is a bit more moot, but it should be remembered that the SYJ acted as a feeder both to ex-MR and ex-GC lines into Sheffield. I suppose the only way to find out would be to have a look at an LMS timetable of the period in question.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:47 am
by Dave
Not a Garratt, but many many Garratts worked into York on the iron ore trains, certainly in the 50's until withdrawal.
They terminated at Clifton sidings, my mate used to see them as a kid, I sadly do not
remember them...too young, ......he on the other hand is old.
I assume they were used on this flow from their introduction into traffic, someone may know
and confirm.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:04 am
by jwealleans
Have you looked at what the LNER Society and NERA publish? They have both public and working timetables for around your period.

Robert Carroll's Carriage working group might also be able to help.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:33 am
by JASd17
As JW says both NERA and the LNER Society publish useful information.

For carriage workings the May 1932 Carriage Roster for the LNER NE Area is a must, available from NERA. This gives all the local carriage sets used at that period, nearly all still ex-North Eastern Railway stock.

The LNER Society used to do a York station working book from 1936, but this has not been available for some time. This is useful for showing LMS passenger workings into York and which platforms they used.

The LNER Society have several digital copies of public and working timetables which may be of use. A May 1934 NE Area WTT for example.

John

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:18 pm
by 60048
Pyewipe Junction wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:38 am
I doubt that the LMS would have been allowed to operate local services from Leeds to York as it would probably been against the terms of their running rights agreement with the LNER. Ditto Normanton to York, although services originating on LMS territory would have been OK. Sheffield to York via the SYJ is a bit more moot, but it should be remembered that the SYJ acted as a feeder both to ex-MR and ex-GC lines into Sheffield. I suppose the only way to find out would be to have a look at an LMS timetable of the period in question.
That was a point I had not considered. I assumed that such workings would have been Midland, rather than thinking it was the other way round. Thank you! Im keeping my eye open for a WTT for the Midland (Leeds Area) and LNER (NE) for this area. A friend thinks he has an LNER timetable from the late 1930s, which he is going to loan me, so that may help shed some light on things.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:22 pm
by 60048
Dave wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:47 am
Not a Garrett, but many many Garrets worked into York on the iron ore trains, certainly in the 50's until withdrawal.
They terminated at Clifton sidings, my mate used to see them as a kid, I sadly do not
remember them...too young, ......he on the other hand is old. I assume they were used on this flow from their introduction into traffic, someone may know and confirm.
Thanks for that. I had no idea that the Garrets had worked in - Im assuming you mean some of the LMS Beyer-Peacock Garratts, rather than the LNER U1 machine? Where would these trains have originated from - again I'm assuming the East Midlands, around Wellingborough and Corby?

Just to confirm I am thinking of the right place, Clifton Sidings were on the east side of the line, accessed by passing through the station, between the station and York Yard North?

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:31 pm
by 60048
jwealleans wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:04 am
Have you looked at what the LNER Society and NERA publish? They have both public and working timetables for around your period.
Robert Carroll's Carriage working group might also be able to help.
JASd17 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:33 am
As JW says both NERA and the LNER Society publish useful information.

For carriage workings the May 1932 Carriage Roster for the LNER NE Area is a must, available from NERA. This gives all the local carriage sets used at that period, nearly all still ex-North Eastern Railway stock.

The LNER Society used to do a York station working book from 1936, but this has not been available for some time. This is useful for showing LMS passenger workings into York and which platforms they used.

The LNER Society have several digital copies of public and working timetables which may be of use. A May 1934 NE Area WTT for example.

John

Guys,
Many thanks - it really is appreciated. To my shame, I had not heard of the NERA before, and from their website it definitely looks like one to join. It somewhat amazes me that in searching Google for NER and North Eastern Railways that it hadn't appeared in one of the results (or if it has, I've some how missed it totally.)

They're books and reference material looks idea, with a couple of things in the 1930s as John and jwealleans have both pointed out. I'll look to make a purchase from there this afternoon, as they will be fascinating reading. My friend who is loaning me his late 1930s LNER WTT has also put a message on another forum asking about the former LNER Society York station working book to see if anyone has a copy we could photocopy or purchase. I've send a message to the LNER Society on the off-chance they have the odd copy lying around that could be purchased.

All of the research is with the aim of eventually putting together a York-theme or based diorama, but I want to get things right in terms of trains and make up. I've spent several weeks scouring books and web for 1920s/1930s/1940s images of York, and we've also been and done a photo survey of the station. The diorama will only be a section of the station because of the size, but we feel it would be something of an achievement if we can pull it off successfully!

That brings me to one other question, which somebody may be able to help with. I have a signalling diagram of York here from the 1950s, but I believe that the station was lower quadrant NER types until the power resignalling in 1938. Does anyone know whether a track layout or signalling diagram from before or after the 1930s resignalling scheme exists? I would love to get hold of a semaphore based copy, both for reference and to mount on the wall!

Rich

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:33 pm
by john coffin
It is worth remembering that the infamous George Hudson can be commended for the links between Leeds and York, with his York and North Midland railway. The powers therefore passed on to the LMS after grouping.
indeed without his aid, the GNR would not have reached Leeds at all.

Paul

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:01 pm
by Dave
Yes I did mean the LMS Garratts.

I think they ran Toton/York (via Rotherham Masborough and Knottingley)

I believe that is where he meant, but in the 50's when he saw them it could be the sidings opposite the water works before the junction to Harrogate.
I will ask him next time I see him.

Re: York in the 1930s

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:21 am
by 60048
Dave wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:01 pm
Yes I did mean the LMS Garratts. I think they ran Toton/York (via Rotherham Masborough and Knottingley)
Thanks Dave, that would make sense.

Rich