Newcastle Quayside Branch

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PinzaC55
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by PinzaC55 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:22 am

billdonald wrote:
PinzaC55 wrote:
Rlangham wrote:Won this photo of ES1 26501 on eBay, at Heaton, and interestingly shows it pulling a train - I always thought that the locomotives travelled on their own from the Quayside Branch back to the sheds. Does anyone know how often they were used to pull trains when not working on the Quayside Branch?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-W-photo-NER ... true&rt=nc
Since the locomotives were equipped for third rail it would make perfect sense to use them for trip workings at times when traffic was light on the Quayside branch (eg Sunday) and provided the drivers had sufficient route knowledge.
I've no idea and I'd be interested to hear on what basis you make this statement. To the best of my knowledge these locomotives were never used for anything other than the line they were designed for - that is, the Newcastle Quayside branch.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.
I never said they were "certainly" used on such workings "for sure" simply that it would make sense if they were given the circumstances I outlined. If there is a fault in my logic please explain it.

52A
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by 52A » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:51 am

The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.

third-rail
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by third-rail » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm

52A wrote:The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.
monkseaton had a small goods bay on the east side complete with a cowhead buffer,and tynemouth.
the daily pick up goods would call at possibly newbridge st ,west jesmond,the sidings at s gosforth[ilford road], the station at s gosforth,the locozade factory at longbenton,benton,this train may have gone via west gosforth to rowntrees on to callerton /ponteland, gosforth car sheds ,longbenton, benton,after benton i do not know.most parcels and the mail went on normal passenger trains not forgeting the mpvwhich took the heavier parcels and the advance luggage.monkseaton had quite extensive sidings and goods yard,cullercoats had coal sidings,tynemouth had coal sidingsand handled parcels,there was also sidings between before you entered north shields tunnels,north shields had a goods yard both north and south of the running linethe south mainly for the gas works,there was a yard at howden but i think was just for the the wagon works, wallsend had a coal yard also.some one will no doubt add to this and correct some of the info

52H
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by 52H » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:11 pm

Hi all
I remember working the Quayside branch,on completion of work the Elec loco would pull the J 72 up through the tunnel to trafalger yard,the the steam loco pulled the elec loco to Heaton then back it into the siding at Heaton till the next turn. I have no recollection of the loco being used for other purposes.However i was only at Heaton for a short spell.

52 H

billdonald
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by billdonald » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:29 pm

The Newcastle Quayside locomotives were not designed for trip working in the electrified area and were never used as such.

The only evidence I have found in over 50 years of research on the Tyneside Electrification is a Merz&McLellan-sponsored test[1] in 1908. This took place on a Sunday morning when traffic was light, and ran from Heaton Yard, ECML, Benton SE Curve, Tynemouth, Wallsend and back to Heaton. A return trip was made in the other direction the following Sunday. The train consisted of wagons and brake van and was shunted at Tynemouth (first trip) and Monkseaton (second trip) to allow the passage of electric passenger trains. The average speed was 20 MPH.

Trip working[2] in the Electrified Area in NER/LNER days took place at night since the frequency of the passenger service precluded paths for pick-up freights. By the BR period, these workings were a mere shadow of pre-war days but continued largely after hours.

It should also be mentioned that the substations were shutdown from about 00:30 until 04:30 to allow for cleaning and maintenance of equipment. This made it impossible to use an electric locomotive for freight work. Furthermore, repairs and renewal work was also undertaken during these hours viz., the electric track equipment.

A common misconception of these locomotive's purpose is to describe them as shunters - they were not. Their primary purpose was to move traffic through the Quayside Branch tunnels between the two yards at either end. Steam locomotives were allocated to each yard for any real shunting work. When transferring a steam locomotive through the tunnels, it had to be hauled electrically to avoid any smoke and steam.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

[1] Tyne&Wear Archives - Merz&McLellan Collection
[2] Occurrence Books - South Gosforth East

PinzaC55
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by PinzaC55 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:46 pm

52A wrote:The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.
I have 1950's photos of Tynemouth and can confirm that the south bays and parcel sidings all had 3rd rails and that at West Monkseaton one of the fan of carriage sidings at Monkseaton South box and all those parallel with main line had 3rd rails. Thats just 2 stations I have shots of.

billdonald
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by billdonald » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:07 pm

PinzaC55 wrote:
52A wrote:The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.
I have 1950's photos of Tynemouth and can confirm that the south bays and parcel sidings all had 3rd rails and that at West Monkseaton one of the fan of carriage sidings at Monkseaton South box and all those parallel with main line had 3rd rails. Thats just 2 stations I have shots of.
I assume that you meant to say Monkseaton rather than West Monkseaton which has no sidings whatsoever. Tynemouth and its associated track has been well covered by long threads already.

There were five roads that were electrified at Monkseaton:

1. The east end parcels dock.
2. The headshunt at the south side of the station.
3. The two standage sidings that paralleled the running lines.
4. Thcattle dock road in the Hillheads Yard.

Incidently, there was no cabin named Monkseaton South - the two cabins controlling the station were Monkseaton West and Monkseaton East. The latter being the larger of the two.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

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Percy Main
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by Percy Main » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:43 pm

billdonald wrote:
PinzaC55 wrote:
52A wrote:The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.
I have 1950's photos of Tynemouth and can confirm that the south bays and parcel sidings all had 3rd rails and that at West Monkseaton one of the fan of carriage sidings at Monkseaton South box and all those parallel with main line had 3rd rails. Thats just 2 stations I have shots of.
I assume that you meant to say Monkseaton rather than West Monkseaton which has no sidings whatsoever. Tynemouth and its associated track has been well covered by long threads already.

There were five roads that were electrified at Monkseaton:

1. The east end parcels dock.
2. The headshunt at the south side of the station.
3. The two standage sidings that paralleled the running lines.
4. Thcattle dock road in the Hillheads Yard.

Incidently, there was no cabin named Monkseaton South - the two cabins controlling the station were Monkseaton West and Monkseaton East. The latter being the larger of the two.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.
Just to clarify, the "head-shunt at the south side of the station" is the track on the south side of the 'island' platform which I believe was intended for the Colywell Bay branch?

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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by Caledonian » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:23 pm

third-rail wrote:
52A wrote:The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.
monkseaton had a small goods bay on the east side complete with a cowhead buffer,and tynemouth.
the daily pick up goods would call at possibly newbridge st ,west jesmond,the sidings at s gosforth[ilford road], the station at s gosforth,the locozade factory at longbenton,benton,this train may have gone via west gosforth to rowntrees on to callerton /ponteland, gosforth car sheds ,longbenton, benton,after benton i do not know.most parcels and the mail went on normal passenger trains not forgeting the mpvwhich took the heavier parcels and the advance luggage.monkseaton had quite extensive sidings and goods yard,cullercoats had coal sidings,tynemouth had coal sidingsand handled parcels,there was also sidings between before you entered north shields tunnels,north shields had a goods yard both north and south of the running linethe south mainly for the gas works,there was a yard at howden but i think was just for the the wagon works, wallsend had a coal yard also.some one will no doubt add to this and correct some of the info
I don't think that the Howdon yard was associated with the Watts Hardy premises as there's still a substantial stone wall between them, although both seem to have been accessed at the same point. The yard still boasted coal drops until comparatively recently, butted up against this wall and you can still see traces of them.

Although the external blue cladding is also comparatively recent the Watts Hardy building at the east end of the site is original and I can remember that in the early days of Metro operation it still had the name painted on the wriggly tin walls.
Last edited by Caledonian on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stuart

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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by PinzaC55 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:03 pm

billdonald wrote:
PinzaC55 wrote:
52A wrote:The limiting factor would be the existence of third rail. The only places I can remember so fitted were Heaton Carriage Sidings (part), South Gosforth and Trafalgar Yard. There would be nothing to prevent workings between those.
I have 1950's photos of Tynemouth and can confirm that the south bays and parcel sidings all had 3rd rails and that at West Monkseaton one of the fan of carriage sidings at Monkseaton South box and all those parallel with main line had 3rd rails. Thats just 2 stations I have shots of.
"I assume that you meant to say Monkseaton rather than West Monkseaton which has no sidings whatsoever". Tynemouth and its associated track has been well covered by long threads already.


There were five roads that were electrified at Monkseaton:

1. The east end parcels dock.
2. The headshunt at the south side of the station.
3. The two standage sidings that paralleled the running lines.
4. The cattle dock road in the Hillheads Yard.

Incidently, there was no cabin named Monkseaton South - the two cabins controlling the station were Monkseaton West and Monkseaton East. The latter being the larger of the two.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

Yes and it was of course Monkseaton East box not South. http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/7267459778/

In the photo I have (not mine so cannot show it here) there is a fan of 7 sidings at Monseaton East box with the southernmost one electrified and the northernmost one (complete with NER loading gauge) not electrified. Here is my shot of Monkseaton East box in 1979 with the site of the disused sidings and one of the little cast iron locations used with the system to the left of the box.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/3732841385/

third-rail
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by third-rail » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:25 pm

rmweb have a topic on at present about the tyneside electrics,
about halfway down page 9 there is the operating books for the system ner/lner/br ones
telling where the siding isolation pillers are for the sidings

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ics/page-9

also where the section would be isolated from and the safety gear that had to be carried in the cabs

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Rlangham
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by Rlangham » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:30 pm

Couple of observations from a visit to the Ken Hoole archives today;

Firstly, a photo of a Tyneside electric car damaged in the Manors accident in 1926 shows ES1 Number 1 a short distance behind it, no information as to location but could have been used to remove the damaged stock? Be an interesting additional use for them

Secondly, I understood that it was the L class that operated in the Quayside then up through the tunnel before replacement by the electrics, and then for the rest of the line's life J71's or J72's working at the bottom on the Quayside, but there's a photo in the Ken Hoole archive showing a Y7 there in 1920
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by billdonald » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:13 pm

Rlangham wrote:Couple of observations from a visit to the Ken Hoole archives today;

Firstly, a photo of a Tyneside electric car damaged in the Manors accident in 1926 shows ES1 Number 1 a short distance behind it, no information as to location but could have been used to remove the damaged stock? Be an interesting additional use for them

Secondly, I understood that it was the L class that operated in the Quayside then up through the tunnel before replacement by the electrics, and then for the rest of the line's life J71's or J72's working at the bottom on the Quayside, but there's a photo in the Ken Hoole archive showing a Y7 there in 1920
I think it is unlikely that an ES1 was used in the 1926 collision on the basis of incompatible couplings. I would imagine they use a parcels motor as an intermediary between the damaged stock and a steam locomotive. They would have also removed the four shoe fuses on the parcels motor to avoid bridging conductor rail gaps at the collision site. The ES1 locomotives didn't have a specific standage point at South Gosforth Car Sheds and tended to be berthed at the whim of the driver and/or running foreman.

That's right - the L class (J73) were only authorised for use in the Quayside tunnel. Newcastle Corporation owned the running lines on the Quayside itself and placed limits on the axle loads. Up to the late 1930's only Y7 and J79 locomotives were permitted. After strengthening work and extensions, J71, J72 and J77 locomotives were authorised to use Newcastle Corporation lines in 1938.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by plugcoupler » Thu May 23, 2013 1:32 pm

Via an almost semi circular line, not quite a mile in length, running through tunnel and open cuttings on gradients of 1 in 27 and 1 in 30 The tunnel started at Ingham Place Bridge (now demolished). This tunnel exited at a cutting next to Lime Street (Ouseburn) and went into a tunnel again under St Ann's Yard, crossing above the Victoria Tunnel before emerging onto the Quayside at Hamburg Wharf.
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Re: Newcastle Quayside Branch

Post by Rlangham » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:13 pm

In BR days there was a modified brake van used, with additional sand boxes. Was anything similar done in NER days?

Also, does anyone know if any equipment, rail etc are in the tunnels at all, as presumably, albeit blocked up at each end, they are still intact inside?
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask

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