Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

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sir visto
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Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by sir visto »

The Silver Jubilee coaching stock that I have depicted on my site - http://www.elegantsteam.com - have all the coach ID letters in grey shades (as stainless steel). On another railway forum this was stated to be wrong and that the letters were blue (presumably Garter blue) and only 4ins high. I have checked with "Gresley's Coaches" (Harris 1973) and, sure enough, he describes the ID letters as above. However, upon consulting "Railway Liveries 1923-1947 (Haresnape 1989) I find the letters are alleged to be in stainless steel.

I have checked every photo (all black & white) in my collection of the coach views that show the letters and these show as a light grey. I am, therefore, of the opinion that, unless the letters were in a pale blue shade, the odds are that they were metal, ie, stainless steel. Also the heights of the letters, taken as a proportion of the height of the coach side, seem to be rather higher than 4ins.

I am not looking to start a controversy but I am anxious to get my illustrations as error free as I can. Can anyone help ?

Don
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2562
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by 2562 »

Using the Isinglass drawings as a reference, the Lettering is listed as 'chromium'.
No measurement is given for the height, but measuring the drawings gives a scale height of approx 5.5 inches give or take to allow for handwriting in 4mm scale!

I'll see if I can indentify a more detailed source.

Andy
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Andy.
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Bill Bedford
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by Bill Bedford »

sir visto wrote:The Silver Jubilee coaching stock that I have depicted on my site - http://www.elegantsteam.com - have all the coach ID letters in grey shades (as stainless steel). On another railway forum this was stated to be wrong and that the letters were blue (presumably Garter blue) and only 4ins high. I have checked with "Gresley's Coaches" (Harris 1973) and, sure enough, he describes the ID letters as above. However, upon consulting "Railway Liveries 1923-1947 (Haresnape 1989) I find the letters are alleged to be in stainless steel.
Harris says
  • Attractive stainless steel trim was applied together with gill sans characters for the 'LNER' lettering an all numberals.
    .......
    Coach identification plates had gill sans letters 4in high in blue
All the photos I have see have individual coach identification letters which are 12in high (the same as the class designation numbers on the doors), so the plates with 4in high letters are not the same thing. Whether Harris is quoting from a pre-service document or the plates were used initially and later changed to larger stainless letter I don't really know, but I would suspect the former.
robertcwp
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by robertcwp »

Was the set overhauled during the time that the Silver Jubilee was in operation? It was replaced temporarily by the 'spare' Coronation set when the additional vehicle was inserted. Could the numbers and other features have been altered then?
mick b
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by mick b »

Bill Bedford wrote:
sir visto wrote:The Silver Jubilee coaching stock that I have depicted on my site - http://www.elegantsteam.com - have all the coach ID letters in grey shades (as stainless steel). On another railway forum this was stated to be wrong and that the letters were blue (presumably Garter blue) and only 4ins high. I have checked with "Gresley's Coaches" (Harris 1973) and, sure enough, he describes the ID letters as above. However, upon consulting "Railway Liveries 1923-1947 (Haresnape 1989) I find the letters are alleged to be in stainless steel.
Harris says
  • Attractive stainless steel trim was applied together with gill sans characters for the 'LNER' lettering an all numberals.
    .......
    Coach identification plates had gill sans letters 4in high in blue
All the photos I have see have individual coach identification letters which are 12in high (the same as the class designation numbers on the doors), so the plates with 4in high letters are not the same thing. Whether Harris is quoting from a pre-service document or the plates were used initially and later changed to larger stainless letter I don't really know, but I would suspect the former.

I am building a set in 4mm at the moment. Fox Transfers supply them in blue in 12in x 4 and 4in x 4 sizes ,they also do the same colours and type for the Coronation Set. Does anyone know where the 4in lettering would have been fitted. The very few photos I have seen they are not visible somewhere on the ends ?? I cannot tell from the photos whether the lettering is blue or silver?

Mick
sir visto
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by sir visto »

Your post raises a thought. Personally I have convinced myself that the Silver Jubilee ID letters were in stainless steel (or possibly chromium) but I just wonder if the letters on the Coronation/West Riding sets could have been in blue ? It would fit with the colour scheme of the train - just a thought.

I am leaving the letters on my Silver Jubilee illustrations (www.elegantsteam.com) in what purports to be stainless steel and (very) approximately 12in high, as a 4in high letter seems to be much too small (from photo perusal).

Don
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by The Kitman »

Hi,
I am a professional model maker specialising in 4 and 7mm scale locos, carriages and wagons There are no 4mm kits of the Silver Jubilee Articulated coaches available. They were manufactured by either Ian Kirk or Mailcoach and marketed by Cooper-Craft but were discontinued a long time ago.
I have recently receieved an enquiry from a much valued client and have had to give him the bad news.
Hope this helps those seeking these coaches. Hornby do produce some, but I don't think they are a complet 7 or 8 coach rake.
Mike Wynn
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by The Kitman »

Hello,
Silver Jubilee Coaches lettering was indeed BLUE and was either stensiled or laid on as transfers. The only items ever to have stainless steel letters and numbers were the silve streak locos, of which there were just FOUR
Hope this helps
jwealleans
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by jwealleans »

Hello there,

The Silver Jubilee carriages are available in 4mm from MARC Models. Mick B has built a set and illustrated them on this forum. We also run a set on Grantham. Wizard Models also offer the 8 car set in the RDEB range.

I believe Bill Bedford also used to offer them, but I can't say I've noticed them on his website recently.

The Hornby carriages are merely Stanier diagrams painted silver. Simon Martin did start a project to make them look more authentic but I haven't seen any progress reported on this forum for a while.
silverfox
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by silverfox »

Kitman is slightly incorrect.
The four original engines 2509-12 never had chrome or Stainless numbers and letters fitted. 2512 had stainless boiler bands only.
however the 5 'Coronation engines' 4488-92 did have stainless numbers on the cabside and cut out stainless letters on the tender
to these were added 4495/6 for the West Riding Ltd
They also had stainless strips along the bottom edge of the valance and tender.
4498 had the stainless strips when new, but the cut out letters and figure were not fitted until June 39
so in total eight enines ran with stainless letters and numbers
details from RCTS vol 2a page 113
hope that clarifies some things for you. Another small point often overlooked is that the 5 Coronation engins had the Crests of the countries applied to the cabsides, As this displaced the worksplates which normally were fitted in this position, these were relocated to the inside of the cab roof. I am not sure if one or both worksplates were so moved. I didnt get the chance to see both when i saw No 10 in Montreal some 11 years ago nor at the great gathering. Having cabbed no 9 since preservation it certainly has one worksplate on the drivers side

Ron
mick b
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by mick b »

Plus all the A4's (other than Mallard) and the W1 had Stainless Steel Numbers and Letters post war.

I have never seen a photo of any of the Coronation A4's with a cab side works plate.
silverfox
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Re: Advice needed on the Silver Jubilee Coaches

Post by silverfox »

Mick,
yes it only had 22 in cut outs but with painted tender!
The 'Coronation' oos still carried the rests into BR days and i think still had them when withdrawn
Ron
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