Ferme Park south down s/box in 1971

[Mickey]

Ferme Park south down s/box closed i think in 1970 but the structure remained for a couple of years after closure before being dismantled sometime around 1972 i think i recall?. The s/box was situated on the down side of the line built on some short stilts along the retaining wall that runs along side the railway from Harringay (west) station that curves off around towards Ferme Park down side yards. At onetime there was a Ferme Park south up s/box situated on the up side of the line diagonally opposite from Ferme Park south down s/box standing just about under where the Harringay flyover crosses from Ferme Park north down s/box towards Harringay up goods s/box on the up side of the line. I'm not sure of the actual date of closure of Ferme Park south up s/box but i recall the redundent structure of the box sometime around 1967 it was a small s/box painted a grey'ish colour and looked in quite good condition but shortly there after the structure had been demolished. Back to Ferme Park south down s/box a friend and myself after obtaining written permission from BR visited the redundent s/box sometime around 1971. After arriving at the s/box and walking up the long'ish staircase we entered through the un-locked front door once inside the box the lever frame was still intact but i can't remember how many levers made up the frame?. The track diagram had been removed and all of the block instruments aswell as the single needle telegraph instrument had been taken away by the s&t staff. Micky

[manna]

G'Day Gents
I can just remember that box, and I mean 'Just' did'nt it control the enterance to Ferme Pk Down side yard?? A driver and myself on a long boring shunt shift tried to work out how many signalboxes there were between KX and Peterborough, we got to over 100, but we had forgotten both of them?
manna

[Mickey]

Ferme Park south down s/box controlled several sets of points leading off of the down goods line outside of the box into Ferme Park down side yards. Ferme Park south down s/box worked with Finsbury Park No5 s/box in the rear and to Ferme Park north down s/box in advance. Ferme Park south down s/box also controlled the connection leading on and off of the single line called the Harringay curve joining the T&H (Tottenham & Hampstead) line at Harringay Park Junction s/box on the Barking to Kentish Town line. Back around 1968/9 there was some talk of closing the Harringay curve all together but by 1970 the single line was being used by freight traffic again. Micky

[manna]

G'Day Gents
Yep, thought that was the same box, funny many years later when I was a guard at Eastleigh, had a job,light engine to Ferme Park (86/87) to pick up a load of odd stock, to take back to Eastleigh, and we used Harringay curve, to get in and out of Ferme Park, Anyone have any pics of this box
manna

[Mickey]

Funny, but i've never seen any pictures of Ferme Park south down s/box anywhere in railway books or magazines at all for some reason or other i suppose the location wasn't to good a place to photograph being well off the platforms at Harringay West station unless one took a picture of the box from a passing train?. Micky

[AndyRush]

Ferme Park South Down was the third box of that name, I think. It opened circa 1931, was taken out of use 01.04.1969 and formally closed 17.12.1969. I have several negs of it awaiting scanning, along with loads of other GN line stuff.

One day.....

Regards

Andy

[Mickey]

Hello Andy, there was originally 'four' s/boxes around that area in tipically GN fashion two signalling the down lines and two signalling the up lines. Ferme Park south down, Ferme Park north down, Ferme Park north up & Ferme Park south up. You say that Ferme Park south down was only opened in 1931?. I thought it dated from the 1890s but i don't know that i just assumed it was?. Yes the closure date sounds about right, i thought it closed in 1970 but i was very close, i know that BR wasn't in to much of a hurry to dismantle it because the structure was still standing in 1972. Micky

[StevieG]

When FPSD was put out of use in April '69 (thanks Andy), Harringay Curve unavoidably became unusable with it, and remained so until about '72, when the curve (including its 2-way working) and running-in access to the south end of Ferme Park yard was restored when two new sets of points (motor-worked), and new associated semaphore signals, were commissioned, all worked from Ferme Park North Down.

Prior to this, throughout FPSD's 'out of use' period until proper abolition, its signals remained in situ, with the two stop signals for proceeding along the permissively-worked Down Goods naturally left 'off' for through trains to pass.

Signalling Regulations required that whenever a signal box on a permissive line was switched out (and so its stop signals were left 'off', as above), if a train was to be admitted to the section to the next box still open while it was already occupied, the train had to be stopped and the driver informed that xxxx box was switched out*.
So when Finsbury Park No.5 wanted to let one in to the Down Goods while the section to FPND was occupied, it needed to be stopped and 'cautioned' as described.

After a while, with FPSD effectively switched out all the time, when No.5 pulled off for one to head towards the DG while occupied, and held his red flag out of the window, the 'usual' message became routinely assumed, and some trains didn't stop but the crew just tooted an acknowledgement to the red flag and carried on!

If the signalman had needed to stop such a train to give a different instruction, he'd have probably been out of luck, especially if the train had approached on the Down Goods as it would have been four roads away from the box (a long way to be heard shouting), there was (as normal) no detonator placer on the Goods Road, and No.5 had no signal on the DG beyond the box that could have been put back to Danger if it had been a real emergency for which the train had to be stopped (the signal at the north end of each platform, plus the parallel one on the DG, were the only ones involved in routeing trains to/along the DG).
- *- [ The reason being that, when a train was to be signalled into an occupied Permissive Block section, Regs.required that the signal be held at Danger until the train was approaching and 'at or nearly at a stand'. In the above instance though, a train let in 'occupied' from FP5 without knowledge/reminder that FPSD was 'switched out', would sight the 'switched out' FPSD box's signals already 'Off', and so could proceed onwards towards FPND believing the section to be clear, risking a collision.]

[StevieG]

G'Day Gents
I can just remember that box, and I mean 'Just' did'nt it control the enterance to Ferme Pk Down side yard?? A driver and myself on a long boring shunt shift tried to work out how many signalboxes there were between KX and Peterborough, we got to over 100, but we had forgotten both of them?
manna

Hi Manna,
Were you including the Hertford 'loop' in your count?
If you did, and taking the early 1950s as the period in question, I can make it about 100, from KX to Crescent Jn. at P'boro, including all four Ferme Park's, but only by also including Five Arch, Goods & Mineral, all the 'other' Fins.Park area boxes (Nos. 1, 7, & AG), and Hitchin ('Midland') box, but excluding Nene Jn. and the other 'Midland' line boxes at P'boro.

[AndyRush]

Hello Andy, there was originally 'four' s/boxes around that area in tipically GN fashion two signalling the down lines and two signalling the up lines. Ferme Park south down, Ferme Park north down, Ferme Park north up & Ferme Park south up. You say that Ferme Park south down was only opened in 1931?. I thought it dated from the 1890s but i don't know that i just assumed it was?. Yes the closure date sounds about right, i thought it closed in 1970 but i was very close, i know that BR wasn't in to much of a hurry to dismantle it because the structure was still standing in 1972. Micky

Unless somebody knows different (!), the various boxes with 'Ferme Park' in their name appear to have been:
Ferme Park Down Sidings signal box opened 1887, renamed Ferme Park South Down signal box 1893 and closed 1900.
Ferme Park South Down signal box (second of that name) down side at 3m 42½ch, opened 1900, closed 1931
Ferme Park South Down signal box (third of that name) down side at 3m 45¼ch, opened 1931, closed 17.12.1969.
Ferme Park South Up signal box up side at 3m 48¼ch, opened 1899, closed 08.09.1968
Ferme Park North Up signal box up side at 3m 64¾ch opened ? (may have been moved or replaced between 1895 and 1912, mileages different), closed 15.08.1954
Ferme Park Up Sidings signal box up side at 3m 66¾ch opened 1887, renamed Ferme Park North Up signal box in 1899 (may have been moved or replaced between 1895 and 1912, mileages different), closed ?
Ferme Park North Down signal box down side at 3m 68¾ch opened circa June 1893, closed 15.12.1974.

Any further information welcomed

Regards

Andy

[StevieG]

Some drivers of trains, I was told, if detained by Ferme Park South Down's Home on the Down Goods being at Danger (& perhaps the same at the FPSD Harringay Curve Home), would mischievously try having a bit of fun if they had an unknowing firemen, when Rule 55 needed to be invoked (after detained two minutes, go to signal box to remind signalman of train's presence at his signal).
They would tell the fireman to go to 'the box' and do Rule 55.

Now these signals were quite close to Harringay 'Passenger' box (no more than about 40 yards away : but 'Passenger' box, although only separated from the DG by one other line, did not control the DG), while FPSD, that actually worked them, was just about out of sight round the corner of the high embankment, beyond Harringay West station.

So the fireman innocently went straight to 'Passenger' box, to be 'greeted' (no doubt with varying degrees of kindness or annoyance/rudeness) by such as 'Go away, you're nothing to do with me mate.', and probably ended up very perplexed and possibly fearful of going back to the driver feeling a failure in carrying out this simple duty, and possibly still 'in the dark' as to why.

[StevieG]

" .... but i can't remember how many levers made up the frame?." ....

I think it was 36 levers, Micky.

[Mickey]

Was it only a 36 lever frame?, thinking back 39 years i thought it was about a 50-55 lever frame but thats what time does to ones memory i guess?. Micky

[manna]

G'Day Gents
Stevie G, To be honest, I can't remember if we took in the Hertford loop or not, t,was a long time ago (about1972) but probably did, I know it amazed us, even my driver!!
manna

[StevieG]

Was it only a 36 lever frame?, thinking back 39 years i thought it was about a 50-55 lever frame but thats what time does to ones memory i guess?. Micky

I think I recall that there was an usually generous bit of spare space at the frame ends, so it probably could have accommodated 50 or 55 if it had been necessary.

After first getting into signalling and 'boxes on 'another railway' (the chocolate & cream Region), my general impression of GN main line boxes when first getting to know some of them later, was that quite a lot of them looked too small on the outside for the number of levers to be found inside.
When I first saw New Southgate, and thought it looked externally to be of a fairly moderate length (which, on that 'other railway', might've had a frame of about 30, or 35 at a push). I was truly amazed to subsequently find a 60-lever frame squeezed in, with less than a 2 feet gap between each end and the wall.
I suppose this might be explained in some cases, by the GN, during its period of expanding tracks, layouts and signalling, and thus requiring more levers, shoe-horning a longer frame into an existing signal box structure where possible, rather than have to construct a new larger one.