Flying Scotsman Routes 1920's

[Richard Medway]

Dear Group
Having browsed the postings, I'm very impressed by all your collective knowledge. Perhaps someone can answer this question for me?
I'm writing a biography of a person who lived in Yorkshire as a child, where his local station was Hawes Junction, now apparently just a signal box named Garsdale.
As a young boy, he remembered regularly seeing the Flying Scotsman passing on this line, especially the smoke!
A friend of mine says that this is impossible, as the Flying Scotsman couldn't have gone on this line, so I'm a little confused, but I'm finding it hard/impossible to determine the route of the 'main line' to Scotland during 1926-1932, has anybody any ideas?
Perhaps the main line was diverted this way due to flooding on the East Coast?
I've just realised I'm happily qualified to be part of this group, as I spent months finishing an Airfix model of 'Nigel Gresley' in my childhood. I could never get it to run properly on tracks, as I don't think it had metal axles...
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer
Richard Medway

[Colombo]

Richard,

Hawes Junction was on the LMS route to Scotland via Settle and Carlisle.

LMS Main Line trains were often hauled by Royal Scot locomotives from 1927. Flying Scotsman is an LNER Class A3 from the same period that ran only on the East Coast Main Line. There is often confusion amongst non-believers. In the 1960s, A3 class locomotives did run on the Settle and Carlisle Line from Leeds for a few years.

Hawes Junction was at the western end of a rural railway that ran from the S&C through Hawes to join the ECML at Leeming Bar. You may be able to weave the following interesting titbits into your story:

1. The Midland Ralway built the line from the West as far as Hawes where all their trains terminated. The NER built the Eastern end from Leeming Bar as far as Hawes.
2. Trains were run by both railways as far as Hawes, and by their successor companies, the LMS and the LNER from the Grouping in 1923. There were no through passenger trains.
3. A through traveller therefore relied on a catching a connection at Hawes.
4. The trains at either end junction with their respective main lines could not leave until they had received the passengers from their respective mainline connecting trains. Their wait for a late connecting train would adversely affect their arrival time at Hawes.
5. It follows that neither company's trains could leave Hawes late as they too had to catch their connections at each end....do you get my drift?
6. There was (and remains) a creamery at Hawes producing delicious Wensleydale Cheese and rich cream as well as milk. Special express goods trains were run to London. There was just sufficient traffic to justify an LNER shunter at Hawes. This was usually a Sentinel steam loco, an interesting box on wheels..see classes Y1 and Y3 in the LNER encyclopedia associated with this site. For other LNER locos, see Classes G5, D17 and D20 on passenger trains, J21, J25 and J27 on goods.
7. LMS carriages were maroon. LNER were varnished Teak.
8. A salacious bit for you. Hawes Junction was a desolate spot, originally named after the Moorcock Inn, the only building near the station for miles. The porter used to announce the arrival of main line trains and the availability of the connecting train by shouting "Moorcock for Hawes". Eventually, this was heard by one of the Midland Railway's Director's wife and she insisted that the station name be changed.
9. There was famously a turntable at Garsdale which was surrounded by a sleeper built stockade, because in a severe cross wind locomotives on the table would otherwise be blown round and round.
10. I have a very old road atlas which names the station as "Hawes Junction and Garsdale".
11. I am sure that there is an excellent book about the Wensleydale Railway, can any of my colleagues name it?
12. The eastern end as far as Redmires is preserved, see: http://wensleydalerailway.co.uk/

Colombo

[Colombo]

Richard,

See Wensleydale Railway by C Hallas available from Abebooks and other dealers.

What kit did you build?

Airfix did not make a model of Sir Nigel Gresley to my knowledge. If they did it passed me by. Kitmaster made the dies for the 00 scale kits that Airfix bought off a scrap heap from the Official Receiver and later sold to Dapol. Kitmaster did produce the dies for an A3 like Flying Scotsman, but these were unfortunately scrapped by the t--t of a Receiver (putting it mildly) who had to dispose of the Kitmaster assets. He also scrapped the dies for the Mk1 carriages, the LMS Beyer Garratt and a few others.

Colombo

[richard]

(8) - Aha - that explains the late Andy Calvert's layout that is currently on the exhibition circuit. Never seen it, but it has featured the NGS Journal, Railway Modeller (I think?), and is often discussed on the ngauge listserver.
It is "Settle & Carlisle" inspired, but I hear the buildings are more Eden Valley...

(9) It also inspired a story in the original Awdry Railway Stories (aka "Thomas the Tank Engine") - without the stockade, of course.
I understand that it was quite a small turntable, so even medium sized engines had to be carefully positioned - usually resulting in a near perfect balance.


Richard

[Richard Medway]

Colombo,
I was about ten at the time, which would place this around 1959. We had an OO model railway built by my dad, so it would have been that gauge. As a kid, i was very upset because i couldn't get the green body paint to come out good with just a small brush - no sprayers in those days.
I must confess to haveing no interest at the time, and no knowledge of who Sir Nigel Gresley was, until I came across it here, and the memories came flooding back . I I remember rightly, the body style was the same as the Mallard, but why they didn't make it a Mallard kit, I have no idea, it might have sold better:-)
I'm anticipating you saying that the name, colour, body style are all wrong, which wouldn't surprise me since i haven't thought about this in fifty years...
So if I'm understanding your facts correctly. there is a difference between Royal Scot locomotives and the 'Flying Scotsman'? (As Peter Cook used to say,"You could confuse a stupid person!) So these childhood memories would be of Royal Scots, which at a young age would still be a great big noisy steaming monster!?
Thanks for your help
Richard

[Colombo]

Richard,

The childhood memories in the late 1920s could be of Royal Scots. Any memories from the early 60s could have been of A3s from Leeds Holbeck shed, Neville Hill or Carlisle. Prior to that time, they were far to valuable an asset to be allowed off the ECML on a regular basis, but when the diesels arrived, they were surplus on the ECML and were drafted elsewhere until they wore out.

Colombo

[Colombo]

Richard,

We have not yet identified what it was exactly you were building. If it was a model of Sir Nigel Gresley, which is an A4 and still in existance, then I really have no idea who made it.

Here is a site listing all the Kitmaster kits with illustrations. Many of these I built as a teenager. http://www.rosebud-kitmaster.co.uk/kitlisting.htm

Then the company folded and many of the dies for the kits were bought by the Airfix company, but some had been scrapped including the A3 and the Beyer Garratt as well as all the Mk1 Carriages, which was a great loss to the modelling fraternity. The rescued dies are now owned by Dapol and they still produce the kits, although they are a bit worn by now and the mouldings are not as crisp. I have recently seen a rare un-built Beyer Garratt kit from the 1960s and the quality of the mouldings is superb.

This site gives a list of all the Airfix loco kits with ilustrations.
http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/Airfix/LocoIndex.htm

Can you recognise what you were building?

Colombo

[twa_dogs]

Hawes Junction (Garsdale) (Ex MR S&C) did indeed have the infamous stockaded turntable which is now at Keighley in W. Yorks.

The Flying Scotsman diversions you are thinking of wouldn't be post WWII? If so there were floods on the ECML circa 1948 which entailed diversions via routes in the borders. Otherwise the only LNER alternative main routes through the north riding would have been to take the train to Leeds and then onwards via Ripon and back to the ECML at Northallerton. Given the inter company rivalry at that time, as well as historically, I cannot imagine a west coast company finding paths for an east coast company.

[Richard Medway]

Colombo,
Thanks for the links, it only shows me to be more confused than i thought
The 'Battle of Britain' class looks very familiar, and at least i got the green livery correct, and Biggin Hill rings a bell, considering i knew little about the actual Battle of Britain at that age . But where would i have got the name Nigel Gresley from? Did he design these Pacific locomotives?

Thanks for all your input on the Garsdale Flying Scotsman/Royal Scot mystery, i think you guys have 'cracked it'. Well done, you're the experts!
Richard

[richard]

The Battle of Britain (and very similar Merchant Navy) Pacifics were designed by Oliver Bulleid.

Bulleid was originally with the GNR and then LNER as Gresley's assistant, but left to become Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Southern Railway.
So there is tenuous link. I have a biography on the site, here:

http://www.lner.info/eng/bulleid.shtml

Perhaps you confused the "unorthodox" shapes of the A4s and the Bulleid Pacifics as a child?

Richard

[Colombo]

Richard,

I have a copy of the Microsoft Train Simulator which is a magnificent piece of work, which enables me to drive a virtual steam locomotive over the Settle and Carlisle Railway, as well as other trains over other routes around the world. I do not play this game any more because it really is a time waster on a grand scale, but anybody who wants to play trains, but has not the time to build a model railway can do it in a virtual sense. There are upgrades to this game which allows you to improve the scenery and add additional locomotives and other routes as well, such as the Llangollen Railway.

However, Microsoft were seduced by the romance of the Settle and Carlisle route and the popularity and general awareness of the public of Flying Scotsman and so inevitably the original game features Flying Scotsman in LNER livery, in pre-war condition pulling a train of LNER teak coaches over an LMS route. Brilliant experts, directed by sales orientated managers have completely abandonned the truth and produced a simulation that is entirely unprototypical. Mr Joe Public now believes that FS did haul trains on the LMS pre-WW2. He has been deceived. This how popular misconceptions are bred.

I beg you not to fall into this trap. I said that Royal Scots did work on the LMS and they did from 1927. However only Midland Railway engines worked the S&C until the Grouping in 1923, and for a good few years afterwards. The MR had a small engine policy and did not use large passenger locos, it took years to upgrade their servicing facilities to accommodate larger locomotives like the Royal Scot. Therefore it is quite likely that the largest locos that were seen at Garsdale until the later 1920s would have been Midland Compound 4-4-0s, like no.1000 in the National Collection.

I attach a link to Neil Harvey's album of locomotives in the NRM: http://teamhotosbyeilarvey.fotopic.net/p33345737.html

Railways were at their pinnacle of popularity in the 1920s, besides the ocean liners, they were the fastest and most glamourous means of transport. Trains to Scotland were some of the best in Britain, the Scottish Flyers captured the popular imagination. Is this where your subjects misconception arose?

Colombo


Colombo