Branch lines around Hatfield.

[thesignalman]

Thanks, Andy. I guess that is one of the "residents" in the foreground wandering purposelessly off . . .

John

PS - yes, I remember the surplus army equipment dealer, there were often tanks parked in the station approach road.

[John C]

Ah, so the boxes in the picture must be what I saw when I took my little walk along the branch (referred to in my post a few days ago).

I knew I wasn't imagining things!

[dlester]

Incidentally, this Hatfield (north end) 'Through' or 'ladder' crossover had even earlier been long indeed, running from the aforementioned Carriage Siding right across to within the Up Yard, with slip connections in the St.Albans line, Luton line, Down Slow, Down Fast, Up Fast, Up Slow, and Hertford single line (or Up Goods) en route : However the slip in the St.A. line was unlike the rest in that it did not give access between the St.Albans direction and the up side: it was the opposite way, forming the start of the Carriage Siding as a connection from the St.A. line (Hat. station direction).

Stevie,

There is a superb shot along this ladder crossover in Peter Coster's GN Mainline Engineering Perspective Vol 1. In the foreground we have a railway employee about to be squashed flat by a J6. But in addition you have a good view of Hatfield No 2 box, and the 1:8 single slips, and the treadles for interlocking.

Regards,

ps Does anyone have Hatfield No 1/2/3 (and perhaps 4 as well) signal box diagrams? Dates almost anything 20th century, but 1930s for preference.

[StevieG]

Stevie,

There is a superb shot along this ladder crossover in Peter Coster's GN Mainline Engineering Perspective Vol 1. In the foreground we have a railway employee about to be squashed flat by a J6. But in addition you have a good view of Hatfield No 2 box, and the 1:8 single slips, and the treadles for interlocking.

Regards,

ps Does anyone have Hatfield No 1/2/3 (and perhaps 4 as well) signal box diagrams? Dates almost anything 20th century, but 1930s for preference.

Thanks for the book pointer.
Diagrams: Not easily found or shareable. I've a feeling the old No.1 went earlier than the 1930s. (No.4 was originally the Up side, south end box; the numbering was done in the same way as most other GN numbered-Box locations in the south.)

[Mickey]

Deleted

[R. pike]

ps Does anyone have Hatfield No 1/2/3 (and perhaps 4 as well) signal box diagrams? Dates almost anything 20th century, but 1930s for preference.

1,2 and 3 yes. 4 no

[dlester]

1,2 and 3 yes. 4 no

Brilliant!

Can we come to some sort of deal on copies?

I'm interested because I'd like to get an idea of the location of the treadles and so on.

Dave Lester ( dlester@cs.man.ac.uk )

[dlester]

Stevie,

There is a superb shot along this ladder crossover in Peter Coster's GN Mainline Engineering Perspective Vol 1. In the foreground we have a railway employee about to be squashed flat by a J6. But in addition you have a good view of Hatfield No 2 box, and the 1:8 single slips, and the treadles for interlocking.

Regards,

ps Does anyone have Hatfield No 1/2/3 (and perhaps 4 as well) signal box diagrams? Dates almost anything 20th century, but 1930s for preference.

Thanks for the book pointer.
Diagrams: Not easily found or shareable. I've a feeling the old No.1 went earlier than the 1930s. (No.4 was originally the Up side, south end box; the numbering was done in the same way as most other GN numbered-Box locations in the south.)

Stevie,

I have a fairly substantial list of pictures of Hatfield Station area, mainly 1930s. One substantial source is the HMRS, which has a set of about 20-30 photos in the mid-1960s (i.e. with the old station). Also Isinglass has a floor plan of the Up-side station building. A 1"/one chain map is in the GNR Engine sheds Vol 1; this is sufficiently accurate to read off the pointwork crossing angles.

Cheers,

Dave Lester.

I'll see what I can get together, by way of a photo-library list.

[StevieG]

" .... I'm interested because I'd like to get an idea of the location of the treadles and so on.
Dave Lester " ( dlester@cs.man.ac.uk )

What you call treadles, are I strongly suspect, fouling or clearance bars (often colloquially called 'lockbars') : I know of no treadles having been present.

Treadles are devices, usually not large I'd say, which foul the flangeway, and are depressed by passing wheels, so making or breaking electrical contacts to enable signalling locking or releasing functions by proving that something wheeled has physically passed.

Clearance or fouling bars are long, theoretically longer than the wheelbase of any loco or vehicle which might pass over them, and would usually only exist if no more modern/effective other means of train detection had been introduced on a line/location.
These bars lay alongside a rail, below but clear of, the flangeway and are lever-operated. When operated, they rise, fouling the flangeway while passing through an arc, still parallel with the rail, before continuing and dropping down clear of the flangeway again. Any loco or vehicle standing over the bar should stop it moving through its arc, and so should prevent its lever from being operated all the way between its two positions in the box.
These bars can be arranged to operate as an individual function to prove that a certain section of track was clear (e.g. a non-track-circuited platform line), or, as I suspect in this case at Hatfield, while some were probably at trailing points, several were mechanically linked with an adjacent facing point lock, so preventing the signalman unlocking facing points while something was passing over them.

Please don't go to any great trouble about more photos/station plans on my part alone, Dave.

[dlester]

" .... I'm interested because I'd like to get an idea of the location of the treadles and so on.
Dave Lester " ( dlester@cs.man.ac.uk )

What you call treadles, are I strongly suspect, fouling or clearance bars (often colloquially called 'lockbars') : I know of no treadles having been present.

Treadles are devices, usually not large I'd say, which foul the flangeway, and are depressed by passing wheels, so making or breaking electrical contacts to enable signalling locking or releasing functions by proving that something wheeled has physically passed.

[...]

Please don't go to any great trouble about more photos/station plans on my part alone, Dave.

Stevie,

I'm no signalling expert, but the following image (squiffy, lo-res, p214, The Book of the Great Northern Vol 1, PJ Coster, Irwell Press. Buy it if you need a better image) gives an idea:

The J6 is on the Hertford Branch line, and the next road to the left is Up Slow. Look closely at the gap (flangeway?), I'm no signalman, so an expert view of this would be much appreciated. Is it a treadle or a fouling bar?

[StevieG]

Thanks Dave,
I'm seeing fouling/'lock' bars.
Being the Hertford single line (photo looks to probably pre-date this line's conversion to be the Up Goods circa 1940), these points (& it's reminded me that the long crossover's connections in this line were also a double-slip) had to have facing point locks (out of sight below the protective wooden 'ramps').
The Hertford line's bar can be seen just on the loco's side of the check rail, and there's another a little nearer, on the left, behind and either side of the check rail in the long crossover route.

[terence tomsett]

Bit late but I came across this by chance. Goods definitely went to Hertford via Cole Green after 1954.
I was a fireman from Hatfield Loco until going in the Army in 1958 so certainly until then.
Terry

[andro]

Possibly of some some interest here: "Hertfordshire's Lost Railways" by Keith Scholey http://stenlake.co.uk/books/view_book.php?ref=310. The photo reproduction quality is not very good and there's no map, but the pictures are interesting.

Andrew

[52D]

Is this link relevant to the discussion, the area is a bit far sarf for me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkITu7V3RPI