Branch lines around Hatfield.

[sandwhich]

There are three such lines that I can remember, Hatfield to St Albans that lost its passenger service in 1951 but I am not sure if freight continued after that time, then there was Welwyn Garden City to Hertford North via Cole Green that lost its passenger service in 1954 but if memory serves me right kept a freight service until the 1960s, could anybody confirm this.

Also I mentioned in another thread which probably should not have been there of the Welwyn GC to Luton line. I do remember an afternoon loco hauled passenger train that left Moorgate at around 16 20 and on arrival at Hatfield the guard had to travel in the front brake (in the days when there was a gaurds brake at either end of the train) for the rest of the journey to Luton. The passenger service ceased in 1965 when the service became a dmu working that terminated at Hatfield. I know this was along time ago but does anybody know of other passenger workings on this route before 1965 or was it just a one passenger train a day service that some lines ran.

[Mickey]

I liked those 2 branch lines that parted company from the main line at Welwyn Garden City.

Mickey

[2512silverfox]

Oakwood Press should be able to help here. Booklet 44 is The Hatfield Luton and Dunstable Railway by G & S Woodward which covers the period to closure.

[Mickey]

The Middleton Press does a book on the branch lines around Hertford that also features the Broxbourne-Hertford East branch the Hertford East- Hatfield branch via Hertingfordbury the Buntingford branch and the Hatfield-st Albans branch as well.

Mickey

[John C]

Ref Sandwhichs query about the Hatfield-St Albans branch, I can confirm that freight did run until sometime around 1963/64/65. When I was a young fireman at Watford, we worked coal to St Albans gas works, and I recall seeing a 350hp shunter in the bay platform with some mineral wagons. Only ever saw this once if I recall correctly.

I do remember one day, after the Hatfield line had closed completely, having some time to spare at SA waiting for the Watford DMU to clear the single line section, my driver and I took a walk to St Albans London Road station and found a load of old ammo boxes just dumped in the four foot. We'd no idea how they might have got there, whether they were anything to do with traffic that was once handled there or just "chucked over the fence".

Any ideas anyone?

[Mickey]

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[thesignalman]

1967 into 1968 i remember the Hatfield-stAlbans single line branch line leaving the main line just north of Hatfield station (just beyond the Great north road bridge) and the sharp left-hand curve it took towards stAlbans. Up to about 1968 there was still x2 tall lattice post semaphore signal gantries worked by Hatfield no.3 in place (both quite impressive actually) one gantry was sighted by Wrestlers bridge (opposite Hatfield no.2 Up fast & Up slow lines Inner home signal gantry) coming off the Luton-Hatfield single line branch and was sighted on the right-hand side of the single line and the other gantry coming off the stAlbans-Hatfield single line branch was sighted on the left-hand side of the single line on the sharp curve then sometime during 1968 both signal gantries were abolished and a set of 'stops' was placed on the stAlbans branch curve which was just visible from a passing train i recall.

Here are the signals you are talking about, Micky - not a very good quality picture I'm afraid but I think its worth sharing.

Photo: R Flanagan, collection of John Hinson

Best wishes,

John

[StevieG]

Thanks v.m. for that John. It would be good if we could thank Rod for capturing this one.

Micky,
I think the fine and elaborate Luton Line structure went before that on the St.Albans line.
It was about 1968 (possibly '69) when I first got a look inside no.3 box. The St. A. line signalling was then all still intact according to the diagram and from my vague recollections of what was visible from passing trains.

But the Luton Line was in a different state as this was after the 'fall' of 'the Wrestlers' overbridge, which I only vaguely remember but which apparently happened on Sun. 20th Feb. '66 :
http://www.ourhatfield.org.uk/page_id__442_path__.aspx (includes photos & OS map extracts)
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/events ... ventID=771 .

After this event, and presumably arising from it, the Luton Line (& the Up Goods on the opposite side of the main running lines) were permanently severed; (an 'on a plate' opportunity for management to slim down little-used facilities perhaps: but probably moreso with the Up Goods than the Luton Line) - apparently with buffer stops set up on both sides of the bridge site.
So by the time of my visit to No.3 box, the Luton Line Down starting signal near the bridge had been (oddly it could be thought, but read on...) retained and fixed at Danger, as the Hatfield end of the Luton Line had effectively become only a shunting spur from the station/box end : I think the signal's retention became necessary as no change was made to No.3's "Western Platform" (Down Slow) and D.Goods Homes reading to the Luton Line and so they remained as full-size arms.
But even at the time of the bridge collapse, I wonder if all the arms on that splendid Luton Line Up Homes bracket were still there? - Because those which applied for crossing over to the Up Fast and Up Slow needed the 'Through' or 'ladder' crossover from the Carriage Siding (paralleling the curving St. A. line on its SW side; see the previously-posted photo) to the Up Fast to have still been operational, and I'm not sure that it was then, having long had an (admittedly unsupported) impression that it went earlier, substituted by the definite later layout of just two crossovers (Up Fast-D.Fast, and D.Fast-D.Slow: Not connecting with the former Luton Line at all). Perhaps John has some info. to confirm/deny this?

You probably know that these signals reading across to the Up Side were slot-controlled by both Nos. 3 & 2 boxes, yet as late as '68 some appreciable time after they had gone, No.2 Box still had two mechanical "ON / OFF" indicators behind the lever frame, which I presumed showed when a No.3 slot had been pulled,

Incidentally, this Hatfield (north end) 'Through' or 'ladder' crossover had even earlier been long indeed, running from the aforementioned Carriage Siding right across to within the Up Yard, with slip connections in the St.Albans line, Luton line, Down Slow, Down Fast, Up Fast, Up Slow, and Hertford single line (or Up Goods) en route : However the slip in the St.A. line was unlike the rest in that it did not give access between the St.Albans direction and the up side: it was the opposite way, forming the start of the Carriage Siding as a connection from the St.A. line (Hat. station direction).
This was all there apparently up to about the early/mid-1950s according to some diagrams which I've seen over the years, when the portion from the Up Fast [exclusive] to the up yard was removed :
But, as may be seen from the previously-posted photo, the St.A. line signal shows evidence of having once had signal/s leading towards the Up side rather than those then left, applying only into the "Western Platform" (Down Slow) or the Down Sidings/Loco.
Again I have seen a diagram somewhere, dated possibly at around the 1900/10s, which showed the long crossover connections in the St.A. line as a double slip, which then did allow movements between the St. Albans direction and the Up side lines.

At some time I have seen a really old-looking B&W photo; a postcard possibly; of what I think was a 4-wheel petrol railcar (could such have been GNR times?), pretty clearly in the Up Yard, next to the yard's miniature somersault-armed signal for this 'crossover', which had, mounted vertically above each other (and this I recall clearly from the photo), 6 arms (Hands up all those who thought five was the maximum ever allowed?).
I'm pretty sure that at some point later this became just a single arm, but was I think still worked by separate levers for the different routes: Presumably one of the routes was to allow shunting in the yard, as I can only calculate a possible maximum of five 'Down side' destinations for routes going over the crossover.

P.S. I have a copy of an undated Photomatic print purchased years ago, of 4492 Dominion of New Zealand on a Down Express north of Hatfield. The train is on the D.Fast line beside Hatfield No.3 box's Down Slow starting signal (which was very roughly 200 yards North of 'Wrestlers Bridge'), and in the far background can be seen not only the same, tall, Luton Line Up signals, easily visible as intended, against the sky over the bridge, but also their one-time, also tall, Up Fast, U.Slow and U.Goods counterparts.

[Mickey]

I always liked Hatfield No.3

Mickey

[Mickey]

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[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

IIRC Micky, The 'limit of shunt' was actually then a concrete post 2-arm miniature stop signal which read along the Western Platform Line (Down Slow) and then through Hatfield 1's long crossover to the Up Slow and U.Fast, but also first protected two 'shunting' crossovers, facing to Down direction trains - D.Goods-W.Platform (GF-operated?), and, in parallel with that one. a W.Platform-D.Fast crossover (box-operated, with twin 'facing' discs).
There was a LOS board on the W.Platform line, immediately south of the long crossover I think, as a limiting point for engines off Up Luton or St.Albans branch trains which had arrived in the W.Platform and then running round via either the DF or DG. So I suppose there must have been at least one disc at the bottom of the 2-armed miniature for these engine shunts.

Incidentally, the twin revolving discs for the Up Slow at No.1 (on the girder-work of French Horn Lane bridge weren't they?) read back along the Up Slow or into the Bay platform. The two down direction setback shunt signals at the south end of the Up Slow - U.Fast turn-out, one for the Up Slow and the other for the UF, were single miniature arms on separate posts, both standing side-by-side in the cess, with that for the UF being taller than the other.

[Mickey]

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[thesignalman]

This picture is apparently St Albans London Road, taken in the 1960s:

Photo R Flanagan, collection of John Hinson

The GNR somersault signal must be the distant for St Albans Abbey (L&NWR) box.

I'm interested to know what purpose the elderly coaching stock in this view served - some of them seem to have semi-permanent steps placed for easy access from track level.

John

[Andy W]

Agreed John, we are looking towards Abbey with the station building at London Road behind us. The shed in the foreground is the long disused GNR engine shed which survived until fairly recent times. The goods shed is presumably hidden by those crates. There used to be a guy who dealt in second hand WD equipment who operated from the yard, even after closure.

I guess the coaches are static accomodation for the St Albans Area PW/Civils team or some kind of new works activity. These have appeared in previous late 50's or early 60's pictures I have seen of London Road, in various states of repair. Some were marked with the tell-tale large ED on the sides. Perhaps London Road Shed operated as some kind of base for the Civils - being so close to the Midland Main Line, it would certainly have been a handy spot for a depot.

Andy W.