Railways around Thirsk Prewar (1933-1939)

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Tom F » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:00 am

StevieG wrote:
2750 wrote: " A little bit more to add Steve regarding another signal.
The D22C colour light, if you look in the distance, you can make out a similar bracket to D22C on the up side...and I believe is AU22.
This is on this plan below. 2 (attachment)
I think you are right. Interesting, if only that the number AU22 makes the numbering system more difficult for me to understand fully, though it would now seem that 'D' and 'U' indicate 'Down' and 'Up', and '22' represents the 22nd mile from the 0 milepost (York).
I think you are right regarding D & U...and 22 would make sense as being miles from York. I've a photo of a signal just south of Thirsk which is marked D21.
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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by StevieG » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:48 am

StevieG wrote:I think you are right. Interesting, if only that the number AU22 makes the numbering system more difficult for me to understand fully, though it would now seem to confirm that 'D' and 'U' do indicate 'Down' and 'Up', and '22' represents the 22nd mile from the 0 milepost (York).
Actually, to clarify, if the signal numerals relate to mileposts in a way similar to the aforementioned later practice, the locations of these Thirsk signals would probably be, strictly speaking, in the 23rd mile; i.e. between the 22 and 23 mileposts.

[ Edited 2336 18/04/14, to correct typo in first line.]
Last edited by StevieG on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by PinzaC55 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:38 pm

2750 wrote:Morning all
Since I last posted, my research has deepened into Thirsk, revealing some real gems.
Thanks to jwealleans, I've been in touch with an elderly chap in Thirsk, who knows an ex signalman from Thirsk Box. I have therefore been able get a number of photos...and best of all...loan of a massive 25ft long Thirsk Track Plan.

Here is some attachments of sections of the map. This is better than any other plan I have, as it features signals and infrastructure.
100_9548.jpg

D22C,
D22C.jpg
I've attached the plan with D22C marked, and I believe it controls trains coming out of the down sidings joining the ECML.
100_9552.jpg
On Signal AU 22 the "A" might mean "Approach Lit" ? These type of signals exhibited a large illuminated "A".

Also, note on the above photo of U22C the pre-built and bricked up arch on the left which I referred to earlier in this thread.

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Tom F » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:45 pm

Hi Pinza. I notice that about the Arch, but I also noticed that when the cut the slow lines into the bridge in 1943, they didn't use these...compare to this photo I took last month..... I think I can make out where the old Arch was vaguely.
IMG_7379.jpg
Would the box on D22CS have illuminated something?
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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by PinzaC55 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:45 pm

2750 wrote:Hi Pinza. I notice that about the Arch, but I also noticed that when the cut the slow lines into the bridge in 1943, they didn't use these...compare to this photo I took last month..... I think I can make out where the old Arch was vaguely.
IMG_7379.jpg
Would the box on D22CS have illuminated something?
Oh yes, how strange about the arch! You'd have thought that if they went to that amount of trouble they would have simply replaced the whole bridge with plate girders?
If by the "box" you mean the square thing with a glass front it is a Theatre Indicator as discussed in this useful thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... indicator/

and here http://www.railsigns.co.uk/photos/p_rou ... l#pic_mlri

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Tom F » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:05 pm

PinzaC55 wrote: Oh yes, how strange about the arch! You'd have thought that if they went to that amount of trouble they would have simply replaced the whole bridge with plate girders?
If by the "box" you mean the square thing with a glass front it is a Theatre Indicator as discussed in this useful thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... indicator/

and here http://www.railsigns.co.uk/photos/p_rou ... l#pic_mlri
I'll have a look into those, thanks! :)

The arch issue is strange, and I'm now wondering, looking at the size of the bricked up arch, and the actual length of the bridge, if there was actually more than one arch there, bricked up.
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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by PinzaC55 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:53 pm

2750 wrote:
PinzaC55 wrote: Oh yes, how strange about the arch! You'd have thought that if they went to that amount of trouble they would have simply replaced the whole bridge with plate girders?
If by the "box" you mean the square thing with a glass front it is a Theatre Indicator as discussed in this useful thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... indicator/

and here http://www.railsigns.co.uk/photos/p_rou ... l#pic_mlri
I'll have a look into those, thanks! :)

The arch issue is strange, and I'm now wondering, looking at the size of the bricked up arch, and the actual length of the bridge, if there was actually more than one arch there, bricked up.
Even if there were two arches it wouldn't make much sense to remove the keystones from the nearest one? It's totally bizarre. In Kew Public Record Office they have the LNER minute books - I would love to know what they say about this.

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Tom F » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:57 pm

The problem with the original arch (looking at the photo with U22) is that the bricked up arch is in the way of the Up platform.
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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Bryan » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:39 am

AU rather than Approach Lit could it mean AUTOMATIC UP?

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Mickey » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 am

Bryan wrote:AU rather than Approach Lit could it mean AUTOMATIC UP?
It mentions in the official accident report at Thirsk in January 1954 that all Up line signals started with the prefix U and all Down line signals started with the prefix D (as you mite expect) so if thats a auto-signal your referring to Bryan it may well be?.

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by PinzaC55 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:05 pm

Bryan wrote:AU rather than Approach Lit could it mean AUTOMATIC UP?
I considered that but rejected it because it would be unusual to have an automatic signal in the station area where you would have shunting moves being carried out. Automatic signals would usually be on plain line.

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Bryan » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:04 pm

U and D signal prefixes are very common, as far as I know in the NE area.
In use for sure on the Hull - Scarborough amongst many other lines.

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by PinzaC55 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:52 pm

Bryan wrote:U and D signal prefixes are very common, as far as I know in the NE area.
In use for sure on the Hull - Scarborough amongst many other lines.
No, the only reason a U or D prefix would be used on a signal number now would be if it related to the name of the controlling signalbox eg D22 = Driffield 22. The LNER system was only used on the ECML as it could be conveniently related to Up and Down lines.

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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by StevieG » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:21 am

PinzaC55 wrote:
Bryan wrote:U and D signal prefixes are very common, as far as I know in the NE area.
In use for sure on the Hull - Scarborough amongst many other lines.
No, the only reason a U or D prefix would be used on a signal number now would be if it related to the name of the controlling signalbox eg D22 = Driffield 22. The LNER system was only used on the ECML as it could be conveniently related to Up and Down lines.
True, no signals nowadays which are new (or now being re-controlled/supervised from a box / control point other than the original?) would be given the U or D prefixes in order to represent the direction they apply to.
But where signals that were so-prefixed may still exist unaltered in such ways, they would probably still be 'Dx', 'Uxx' etc., although, as said earlier, (though apparently not applicable at Thirsk) this would only be for Automatic signals [which can only be a signal governing a plain-line signal section: Although 'old-ish' Semi-Automatic signals have also been No.'d utilising this system - Generally here, I'm thinking only of the traditional definitions of Automatic and Semi-automatic stop signals; ignoring that these days there can be other factors and facilities which can make a signal work automatically : -

- And actually the LNE also used the D / U system in the ex-GCR main line's Marylebone-Neasden South 1923 Resignalling, and extensively, for 'Autos' and 'Semis', on ex-GE routes from Liverpool Street from the 1930s and continued by BR(E), who also used it in the Greenwood-Potters Bar quadrupling in the late 1950s (and I think, from Fenchurch Street until and including at least the circa 1960 Barking Resignalling).

Also the 'Choc & Cream' Region were still using it with their new MAS (Multiple Aspect Signalling) 'Panel box' schemes into the early 1970s (of which Slough, Swindon, Bristol and Gloucester survive relatively unscathed), but by that time, BR(E) signalling schemes had dropped it, giving all main signals the prefix for the controlling/supervising power box (e.g, 'P' - Peterborough; 'K' - King's Cross; 'CO' - Colchester).


Oops! Sorry Tom, for straying perhaps a little too far from Thirsk. I will now let the thread continue back on Yorkshire territory.


Incidentally, I have never known of any signals' identity numbers including reference to the signal being 'Approach-lit'. There is perhaps some logic to this, in that whenever a train approaches an 'approach-lit' signal, the driver should see it already lit (at a reasonably long viewable distance), so whether it was actually 'approach-lit' or not ought to be irrelevant to signal No. plate readers amongst railway staff.
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Re: Thirsk Station Prewar (1933-1939)

Post by Tom F » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:18 am

Morning all

I've very lucky that I have a lot of information regarding the layout of Thirsk. What I'm struggling for now is actual photographs of the station pre war.
Thought it was worth posting incase anyone knows any sources.
Tom Foster
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