LNER Spitfires

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ahardy
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LNER Spitfires

Post by ahardy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:33 pm

Hi all,

Another random question from me. I believe the LNER paid for two "Presentation" Spitfires. These were aircraft for the war paid for by local people, towns, companies, etc. I hear LNER employees paid for two "Flying Scotsman" and "Cock o' The North".

I believe Flying Scotsman was aircraft BM202 ZD-H and this may have been the second to carry that name.

Does anyone have a reference for this anywhere or even better any information on the aircraft?

Edit: the Imperial War Museum have a photo of "Flying Scotsman" here:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188208

It does state its the second to carry that name. So can anyone now help with which aircraft carries the same name as 2001?

Andy

Belvoir
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Belvoir » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:16 pm

Spitfires :=

X4913 "FLYING SCOTSMAN (L.N.E.R)"

X4914 "COCK OF THE NORTH (L.N.E.R)"

Both Mk. I from a batch of 500 delivered by Vickers-Armstrong (Supermarine)
beginning 19th August 1940.

Probably not directly related to LNER, but W3653 was named "DONCASTER"
and P8644 was named "HUNTLEY COCK OF THE NORTH".

Source :- "Spitfire - the story of a famous fighter" by Bruce Robertson

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52D
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by 52D » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:28 pm

Buying a Spitfire was quite common and there were many presentation Spits built, Doncaster suggests a town Spitfire appeal same as Huntly or perhaps a rich chap such as the Earl of Huntly may have purchased one himself. There were many other presentation aircraft including Bombers one was named MacRoberts reply after Lady MacRoberts had lost two sons earlier in the war.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

ahardy
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by ahardy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:45 pm

Thank you all for the deatils.

I have had a rummage through the LNER magazine and found what also seems to be a third. The aircraft was named "West Riding" and the mag hints it was again paid for by LNER staff. Flying Scotsman is also mentioned but no trace of Cock o' The North in the staff magazines.

Will carry on looking.

Thanks

Andy

Darryl Tooley
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Darryl Tooley » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:30 pm

According to 'It's Quicker by Rail - The History of LNER Advertising' by Allan Middleton (Tempus 2002), there were four LNER Spitfires:-
R7274 West Riding
X4913 Flying Scotsman
X4914 Cock O' The North
BM202 Flying Scotsman

X4913/4 were both lost, with their pilots, on training missions, which perhaps explains why so little was made of them in the LNER magazine.

Hope this helps

D

Bryan
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Bryan » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:50 pm

What planes were built at which works?
Anybody know the answer to this.

I ask because a hangover from WW2 to the late 80s at BREL York was to found in the directions given to the Yard Gantry crane at the rear of the Sawmill.
Directions were Poppy Rd. Mill, Mains and Aircraft.

Aircraft taken as to the North towards what was the Apprentice School.

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2002EarlMarischal
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by 2002EarlMarischal » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:05 pm

Bryan wrote:What planes were built at which works?
Anybody know the answer to this.

I ask because a hangover from WW2 to the late 80s at BREL York was to found in the directions given to the Yard Gantry crane at the rear of the Sawmill.
Directions were Poppy Rd. Mill, Mains and Aircraft.

Aircraft taken as to the North towards what was the Apprentice School.
I believe Spits were built at Supermarine at Eastleigh but mostly at Castle Bromwich with many satellite factories making components. No idea whether bits were made in York but production was just about everywhere.

This is a great thread combining my two favourite topics! :D

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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Spitfire609 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:43 pm

Image While trawling through online images of Spitfires that flew in WWII I discovered a curiosity. I discovered a new "COCK O' THE NORTH" Spitfire!!! The photo pictures No. 92 Squadron | Presentation Spitfire Mk. Ia QJ-A "COCK O' THE NORTH" sporting a serial number starting with a "P". It is not a picture of P8644 "HUNTLEY COCK O' THE NORTH" for the simple fact P8644 was never issued to No. 92 Squadron. I believe I have narrowed the serial down to Spitfire P9367 which is recorded as being issued to the 92 during WWII in March 1940. I am very eager if anyone can uncover if this was an LNER funded machine purchased as a replacement for X4914 "COCK O' THE NORTH", much the same way BM202 "FLYING SCOTSMAN" was a replacement after the destruction of X4913 "FLYING SCOTSMAN"?... or if this was funded separately???

P9367 Ia 550 EA MIII FF 19-2-40 9MU 24-2-40 92S 'GR-A' then 'QJ-A' 6-3-40 54S 12-6-40 57OTU 1-2-41 ASTH 6-8-41 Cv Va M45 316S 5-12-41 306S 12-12-41 81S 18-2-42 165S 'SK-T' 12-4-42 167S 27-5-42 ATA 21-3-44 SOC 6-6-45

Caledonian
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Caledonian » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:37 pm

Bryan wrote:
Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:50 pm
What planes were built at which works?
Anybody know the answer to this.

I ask because a hangover from WW2 to the late 80s at BREL York was to found in the directions given to the Yard Gantry crane at the rear of the Sawmill.
Directions were Poppy Rd. Mill, Mains and Aircraft.

Aircraft taken as to the North towards what was the Apprentice School.
The short answer is Horsa gliders, built for D-day at York, Doncaster, Cowlairs, Wolverton and probably elsewhere there was experience of working with teak coaching stock
Stuart

A fool is a person who makes false conclusions from right principles; whereas a madman, on the contrary, draws right conclusions from wrong principles [Encyclopedia Britannica 1797]

2512silverfox
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by 2512silverfox » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:03 pm

Most of the Horsa gliders were built either at Airspeed Ltd or one of the well established furniture manufacturers around London and the Home Counties. They contained very little teak but were constructed mainly of balsa wood bonded within fine plywood shapes, hence the lightness and rigidity. I seem to remember that birch was also employed to a large extent.

To put my comments into context, my late father was the project director for the glider production program and I remember being taken to see both Horsas and Mosquitos under construction.

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sawdust
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by sawdust » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:31 am

I remember the late LNERCA president Les Browning, former charge hand carriage builder, telling me that Doncaster built mosquitos during the war.

His (and others) tools were destroyed when the plant was bombed. Workers at other works gave spare tools to the Doncaster workers.

Sawdust.

Caledonian
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Caledonian » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:35 am

2512silverfox wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:03 pm
Most of the Horsa gliders were built either at Airspeed Ltd or one of the well established furniture manufacturers around London and the Home Counties. They contained very little teak but were constructed mainly of balsa wood bonded within fine plywood shapes, hence the lightness and rigidity. I seem to remember that birch was also employed to a large extent.

To put my comments into context, my late father was the project director for the glider production program and I remember being taken to see both Horsas and Mosquitos under construction.
No doubt, but it doesn't alter the fact large numbers of Horsa gliders [and seemingly Mosquitos] were also built at the carriage works referred to, per the earlier question :D
Stuart

A fool is a person who makes false conclusions from right principles; whereas a madman, on the contrary, draws right conclusions from wrong principles [Encyclopedia Britannica 1797]

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Blink Bonny
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Blink Bonny » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:14 pm

Ay up!

Re teak coaches and aircraft building

A skilled woodworker can work miracles! Anyone used to making stuff in oak or teak would find birch, ply and balsa dead easy to work with. On the other hand, no way could a metalworker do this.

The real beauty of the Mosquito and Horsa gliders is that their airframes could be made by cabinet makers, coffin makers, coopers, jobbing joiners, anyone with a workshop and some tooling. Large spaces were only required for final assembly. The result was the ultimate in dispersed manufacture!!
If I ain't here, I'm in Bilston, scoffing decent chips at last!!!!

Darryl Tooley
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Re: LNER Spitfires

Post by Darryl Tooley » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:48 pm

Parts of Horsa Gliders.png
The booklet It can now be revealed - More about British Railways in Peace and War (British Railways Press Office, 1945) has a photo captioned 'Parts of Horsa Gliders were made at York and Darlington...'

D

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