New Barnet North Signalbox

This forum is for the discussion of LNER personalities, and for use by people researching their ancestors.

Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard

User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:24 pm Right I know what it is Stevie I am using the word 'slotted' signal when you are using the correct description a 'transferable arrangement' between both boxes.
( P.S. The Up Slow to Fast Home was never involved, as that of course needed operation of the FPL & points, so could only be worked when South was in-switch.)
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:05 pm
Mickey wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:24 pm Right I know what it is Stevie I am using the word 'slotted' signal when you are using the correct description a 'transferable arrangement' between both boxes.
( P.S. The Up Slow to Fast Home was never involved, as that of course needed operation of the FPL & points, so could only be worked when South was in-switch.)
Yes I was just basically describing that the Up slow line semaphore stop signal that was carried on a bracket post and stood just off the end of the Up slow line platform at New Barnet had another semaphore stop signal slightly lower to it's right that read from the Up slow line to Up fast line for those that didn't know of course Stevie the 'turn out' points and FPL was worked by New Barnet South box.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:09 pm
StevieG wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:05 pm( P.S. The Up Slow to Fast Home was never involved, as that of course needed operation of the FPL & points, so could only be worked when South was in-switch.)
Yes I was just basically describing that the Up slow line semaphore stop signal that was carried on a bracket post and stood just off the end of the Up slow line platform at New Barnet had another semaphore stop signal slightly lower to it's right that read from the Up slow line to Up fast line for those that didn't know of course Stevie the 'turn out' points and FPL was worked by New Barnet South box.
Fair enough Mickey. I wasn't sure how much detail you already understood.

A small detail of curiosity : Did you know, or have you ever noticed from a numbered diagram ? All of Barnet South's FPL levers were next left of their points levers, even those on the Up lines whose FPLs were really on the right-hand end of their points.
So the US-UF 'turn-out' points were 34 but the US FPL was 33.
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:18 pm A small detail of curiosity : Did you know, or have you ever noticed from a numbered diagram ? All of Barnet South's FPL levers were next left of their points levers, even those on the Up lines whose FPLs were really on the right-hand end of their points.
So the US-UF 'turn-out' points were 34 but the US FPL was 33.
No Stevie I've never seen that but it is interesting. I liked New Barnet South box although I never visited it but I believe I read on here years ago that the box may have been a bit heavy going for a signalman to work at?. I don't know if that statement was correct?.

Going back to 'slotted semaphore signals' you may already know Stevie that an interesting example once existed between Acton Wells & Acton Canal Wharf that was worked by both boxes but I would rather not go into details on this topic thread about New Barnet North Box because it would be better off being posted on the North London line thread.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

No worries Mickey : Yes I knew about the AWJ/ACW slotted signal in 1970, thanks.
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

That last NX panel they installed in New Barnet North Box that worked between 1973-1976 that was a very long panel as it could be seen especially from trains departing the Down slow line platform at a relatively slow speed on passing the box. I wonder if that NX panel is still in the New Barnet relay room?.

Just about the time that I was leaving WGC box in February/March 1974 they were on the verge of closing Hatfield No.2 and it's NX panel so the New Barnet NX panel would work with he WGC NX panel (which worked with Langley Junction NX panel) anyway the method of communicating between all three signal boxes was via a single stroke block bell for each line being the Up slow, Up fast, Down fast & Down slow lines also the S&T telecoms installed previously a telephone worked via a slide in card circuit and state of the art telecoms equipment back in 1973-74. No Train Describers being provided back then between the boxes so the book (train register) was best kept up to date especially at WGC where some Down passenger trains running along the Down fast line passing New Barnet were 'turned in' off the Down fast line and onto the Down slow platform line at WGC.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

I was always a little bit more interested in New Barnet South Box as opposed to the North Box because during 1967-1970 the South Box still had quite a few working semaphore signals as opposed to the North Box plus I liked the look of the box and where it was situated between the Down fast and Down slow lines a fair distance south of New Barnet station platforms. I vaguely recall being told by a relief signalman called Mo Canter that New Barnet South Box was a 'heavy job to work' I presume because it had six running lines (2 goods lines, 2 slow lines & 2 fast lines) to deal with constantly so I presume it was a matter of always pulling off levers/signals for approaching trains or putting back levers/signals behind passing trains plus a lot of work on the block instruments with both New Barnet North Box and Oakleigh Park boxes so consequently not much 'sitting down' time in between trains?.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

Some time around 1968 New Barnet North Box, New Barnet South Box, Oakleigh Park, Cemetery & New Southgate boxes were all re-painted in what I thought was a very nice colour scheme by B.R. All five boxes were painted in a beige colour (sandy yellow) with the window frames picked out in white and the box door was possibly a brown colour from memory?..

Beige https://www.drodd.com/images16/beige5.jpg

New Barnet South Box featuring the aforementioned colour scheme possibly taken around 1969/70?. StevieG originally posted this photograph so I believe it is 'his' photograph. Hope it is ok with you to re-post it Stevie?.
https://www.lner.info/forums/download/f ... &mode-view

New Barnet North Box at the end of it's life in 1976 featuring the above colour scheme paint job- https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03 ... 6ce773.jpg
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

The New Barnet NX panel was quite along panel after it took over the Potters Bar station area working with Hatfield (formerly no.2 box) during the second half of 1973 until the box closed in 1976.

Track circuit block working either side of New Barnet (north box) so on the Down lines working firstly both with Wood Green no.1 box and on the Up lines working with Wood Green Up Box no.2 until the Wood Green NX panel (formerly in Wood Green no.4 box) taking over all the lines through Wood Green during 1975. On the Up lines working firstly with the Hatfield temporary NX panel (formerly the no.2 box) and then after the closure of the Hatfield temporary NX panel in 1974 then with the Welwyn Garden City NX panel until both boxes were closed during 1976.

TCB working on the Down fast & Down slow lines and I presume the New Barnet NX panel 'picked up' the trains just north of Wood Green possibly on the approach to Wood Green tunnel(?) and then the trains stayed on the New Barnet panel on both the Down fast & Down slow lines until beyond Potters Bar and possibly 'going off' the New Barnet NX panel opposite the Potters Bar 'golf course' area (on the Up side of the four running lines) near Hawkshead?.

TCB working on the Up fast & Up slow lines and I presume the New Barnet NX panel 'picked up' the trains on both the Up fast & Up slow lines south of Hatfield maybe around the Redhall area and then stayed on the New Barnet panel on both the Up fast & Up slow lines until just beyond Oakleigh Park station before 'going off' the New Barnet NX panel?.

I presume this New Barnet NX panel was relocated into the New Barnet relayroom on closure of the box in 1976 and is quite possibly still in the New Barnet relayroom in 2024.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

The signalling through New Barnet until the autumn of 1970 and the introduction of multi-aspect colour light signalling.

Q. Why was the New Barnet Down fast line semaphore distant signal (maybe a inner distant signal?) carried beneath the New Barnet South Box Down fast line semaphore home signal on the signal gantry near the 'South Box' motorised for?. The distance between New Barnet North Box and New Barnet South Box at a rough guess was about 450-500 yards in a straight line along the railway which could have been worked off a 'signal wire' from New Barnet North Box like both the Down slow and Down goods lines semaphore distant signals were?.

A complicated signalling arrangement existed between Oakleigh Park-New Barnet South Box-New Barnet North Box regarding the mechanical arrangement in regards to the working of the New Barnet South Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal carried beneath the Oakleigh Park Down fast line home/starting signal that could also be 'cleared to the off position' by New Barnet North Box when the 'South Box' was 'switched out' of the circuit anyway my friend StevieG can explain it better than me ha ha
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
rockinjohn
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

full head of steam or bursting to go?

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi was having some railway reflective moments & hit on the classes that I always witnessed with a full head of steam stationary or otherwise,I'm sure theirs others but my own can be narrowed down to 6/7 so here goes 9F/WD(2-8-0)/Merchant Navies/West Country&Battle of Britain/B1/Standard 5& just once a J15 on ECS ex the "Street"after witnessing around 15 shovel fulls into the s/box before its late in life climb of Bethnal Green Bank with 10 on all with not just a little plume or feathering.
User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 10:33 am "The signalling through New Barnet until the autumn of 1970 and the introduction of multi-aspect colour light signalling.

Q. Why was the New Barnet Down fast line semaphore distant signal (maybe a inner distant signal?) carried beneath the New Barnet South Box Down fast line semaphore home signal on the signal gantry near the 'South Box' motorised for?.... "
Prior to the quadrupling through to Potters Bar with the accompanying new signalling, it seems very likely that 'Barnet' North's Down Fast Distant (No.22) on the gantry at the South would have been mechanical, like BN's other two.
With the 1959 new signalling both of BN's DF Stop signals became colour-lights (23 & 24), and with the distance from the Distant to the Home being short (about 450 yards ; although with the principle I'm about to mention, the distance could be said to be irrelevant, and perhaps with the DF being regarded as the most 'important' line), it is most likely that BN's Distant was motorised with its electrical circuitry arranged so that, in the event of either Stop signal being dropped to Danger (e.g. by track circuit failure) or suffering lamp failure (so showing no light), that the Distant would automatically drop to 'On' ('Caution').
Interestingly, as you know, BN's Down Slow Distant remained mechanically worked, despite his Starter (15) also being a colour-light. Perhaps his DS Home still also being mechanical had some bearing on that situation.

You did know(?) that 'Barnet' South's Down Fast Distant below Oakleigh Park's Home, was also motorised, probably at the same time, because under "Indicator Working" where mechanical working of the distants in such a situation of very closely spaced boxes, the '1st' box's Distant has to in some way be operated so as to act as also being the Distant for the '2nd' box.
So South box's DF Distant may also have been mechanical, but also became motorised, as it would be a 'wrong side' aspect sequence for South's Distant, if left as mechanical, to remain 'Off' if North's had dropped to 'On'.

There was a further complication Mickey, in that Oakleigh Park's colour-light Distant, at the entrance to Barnet Tunnel, was a 3-aspect signal (Y/YY/G), with the YY aspect acting as an Outer Distant 'Caution' for both 'Barnet' boxes, with green there thus indicating a clear road as far as signal DF10 at the entrance to Hadley South Tunnel.
I don't know when OP's C/L Distant was brought in, but it almost certainly was when his semaphore was superseded, which was, like that that remained for the Down Slow until 1970 resignalling, on a substantial 'gallows' structure at the exit from Barnet Tunnel.
Mickey wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 10:33 am "A complicated signalling arrangement existed between Oakleigh Park-New Barnet South Box-New Barnet North Box regarding the mechanical arrangement in regards to the working of the New Barnet South Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal carried beneath the Oakleigh Park Down fast line home/starting signal that could also be 'cleared to the off position' by New Barnet North Box when the 'South Box' was 'switched out' of the circuit .... "
Er, ... I think you mean the arrangement for the Down Slow line Mickey ?

You know(?) that when 'Barnet' South switched-out, the same transference of signal control also applied here on the Up, with South's Up Fast and Up Slow Homes coming under control of North as his Starter signals ?
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

Thanks for replying Stevie as it was (to me) a bit of a 'complicated arrangement' but an understandable 'set up' because of the three s/boxes involved Oakleigh Park, New Barnet South Box & New Barnet North Box having 'short block sections' between each box. Anyway with regards to the Oakleigh Park Down fast line colour light distant signal in particular located on the immediate approach to Barnet tunnel I always though that colour light signal was a x2 aspect colour light showing either a yellow or green aspect only and also didn't that Oakleigh Park colour light distant signal survive after the closure of Oakleigh Park box in later 1970 and then it became the New Barnet North Box Down fast line colour light distant signal until early 1973 when the nearby Cemetery box was closed and Absolute block working between Cemetery & New Barnet North Box was abolished and TCB (Track Circuit Block) was instigated on all four running lines between New Barnet North Box panel and either Wood Green Up Box no.2 on the Up lines and Wood Green no.1 on the Down lines. Anyway as I said I thought that colour light distant signal was just a x2 aspect signal head and I don't ever recall seeing it showing a double-yellow aspect at any time(?) but with regards to how that colour light distant signal worked my 'assumption' was that when Oakleigh Park and New Barnet South Box and New Barnet North Box had ALL PULLED OFF along the Down fast line (the New Barnet North Box signalman after clearing his Down fast line signals would put a 'green' aspect in the colour light distant with both Oakleigh Park & New Barnet South Box already pulled off along the Down fast line) and then that colour light distant signal would obviously then display a GREEN aspect and that would signify to an approaching train driver that the Down fast line was clear through Oakleigh Park & New Barnet to at least as far as Hadley Wood south tunnel (from 1959 onwards when it was 'four roads' between Greenwood & Potters Bar were opened) and obviously a YELLOW aspect displayed in that Down fast line colour light distant signal would mean that one of the three boxes HAD NOT PULLED OFF there Down fast line signals so an approaching train driver would either 'shut the regulator' on a steam loco or 'shut off power' on a diesel loco and start to make a 'brake application' when approaching Oakleigh Park and New Barnet so that's how I assumed that Oakleigh Park Down fast colour light distant signal worked?.

With regards to the New Barnet South Box Down fast line semaphore distant signal beneath the Oakleigh Park Down fast line home/starter and situated beyond the Down fast line station platform thanks (again) for clarifying that it was 'motorised' and was not worked 'on the wire' although I think you did say it was 'motorised' previously a few years ago and I may have forgotten that you said it was.

While at New Barnet also that Up slow line stop signal with the Oakleigh Park Up slow line outer distant signal beneath it on the bracket post just off the south end of the Up slow line platform was also a 'funny' set up with some sort of duel-control on that signal between New Barnet North & New Barnet South Boxes but you have previously explained how that worked before Stevie.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Mickey
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

With regards to my above post regarding the Oakleigh Park Down fast line colour light distant signal situated on the immediate approach to Barnet tunnel was basically how I 'assumed' it worked and what I was saying in a nutshell in the above post was all three boxes which were Oakleigh Park, New Barnet South Box & New Barnet North Box all three of those boxes had a control over that solitary colour light distant signal with all three boxes all having a Down fast line distant signal worked off a lever but it required all three boxes to have 'pulled off' along the Down fast line through Oakleigh Park & New Barnet before that colour light distant would then display a 'green aspect' in the Down fast line on the immediate approach to Barnet tunnel but if one of the three boxes was maybe 'slow in pulling off' along the Down fast line that colour light distant signal would remain displaying a 'yellow aspect' and that is how I assumed it worked?.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
User avatar
StevieG
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: Near the GN main line in N.Herts.

Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Mickey,
I could have mentioned that, in darkness, to avoid a Driver 'reading through' a Cemetery box Home signal at Danger for him applying to or onto the Down Fast line there while looking at the brighter Oakleigh Park etc. C/L Distant, that signal was approach-lit if a DF train was approaching it, and also from as far back as New Southgate box's Starter/Cemetery Inner Distant signals, provided that Cemetery's DF Home was 'Off'.

So the Drivers of trains on the parallel Down Slow and heading for the DS bore of Barnet Tunnel, would often have seen the Oakleigh Park etc. DF Distant showing no light at all.
BZOH

/
\ \ \ //\ \
/// \ \ \ \
Post Reply