New Barnet North Signalbox

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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 pm " .... and I have a vague feeling that when my train ran into Oakleigh Park station both the Up fast & Up slow line colour light 'starting signals' for New Barnet North Box were both showing red and I didn't recall seeing any trains running along the Up fast & Up slow lines between New Southgate and Oakleigh Park although I admit I could have missed any train on the Up fast & Up slow line while travelling through New Barnet tunnel I suppose?."
Mickey,
While Cemetery and Southgate boxes were still operational, New Barnet North was still working Absolute Block on all lines to the south of its signals, so its Up roads' Starters at Oakleigh Park [ then NB 502 (UFL) & 504 ] were 'section signals' and would always be at Danger unless cleared for a train that had been accepted by the next box towards KX that was staffed and open.
BZOH

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Mickey
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:23 am
Mickey wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 pm " .... and I have a vague feeling that when my train ran into Oakleigh Park station both the Up fast & Up slow line colour light 'starting signals' for New Barnet North Box were both showing red and I didn't recall seeing any trains running along the Up fast & Up slow lines between New Southgate and Oakleigh Park although I admit I could have missed any train on the Up fast & Up slow line while travelling through New Barnet tunnel I suppose?."
Mickey,
While Cemetery and Southgate boxes were still operational, New Barnet North was still working Absolute Block on all lines to the south of its signals, so its Up roads' Starters at Oakleigh Park [ then NB 502 (UFL) & 504 ] were 'section signals' and would always be at Danger unless cleared for a train that had been accepted by the next box towards KX that was staffed and open.
Yeah that's what I meant Stevie that both Cemetery & New Southgate both appeared to be 'switched out' because on passing both boxes all the Up & Down lines running signals were 'pulled off' and they both appeared to be 'switched out' and 'deserted' so it was probably safe to conclude that both boxes were closed but New Barnet North Box Up running lines starting or section signals (both colour light signals on the Up fast & Up slow lines situated at the south end of Oakleigh Park station on the Up fast line and about hundred yards further south on the Up slow line) were both at danger (showing a red aspect) and my train didn't appear to have been passed by any train running along either the Up fast or Up slow line but both Cemetery & New Southgate's Up fast & Up slow lines signals were all pulled off!!.

With a 8 miles block section between Finsbury Park No.3 & New Barnet North Box with 6 intermediate s/boxes being 'switched out' in between it's a wonder that the block bells would be heard in either Finsbury Park No.3 or New Barnet North Box possibly with the exception of a few 'dings and a few clicks' maybe being received on the block instruments in either box.
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StevieG
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Sorry Mickey.
Misinterpreted what you meant in the wording of that bit.
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Mickey
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

No problem Stevie sometimes it can get a bit complicated trying to explain and write down in a post certain aspects of the signalling now 50 years on.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Chime Whistle »

Thanks for that explanation.Most interesting.

The JH diagram is dated 1932 and shows the layout after HW etc had closed.

I have a book with a picture(1938) of an A4 passing New Barnett North(near the gas works) just north of the station and there are two semaphore distants ,one for the main and and one for the goods line, which I think belong to Greenwood. I say that because the gas works would be approx where one would expect them to be and they match the structure outlined on JH's diagram. In addition, the picture shows two signal wires ,coming from the direction of Greenwood,which I imagine are for the two distants.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

Gresley A4 no.21 Wild Swan on a class 2 semi-fast 'parly' going by the locos headlamp passing New Barnet North Box on the last 10 miles of it's journey up to Kings Cross.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Barnet-R ... Sw42JZEC4Y

P.Way & signalling alterations at New Barnet North Box in B.R. days possibly around the time of the quadrupling of the track from Greenwood to Potters Bar in 1959?. I vaguely remember that 'long crossing' just beyond the box which from memory was removed when the track was rationalised around 1968.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Barnet-R ... 5wrhBZEC4B

Click on the photographs to enlarge them.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Looks very likely to be around 1959 time Mickey. I note that either the three Up roads' Homes have gone from their high bracket, or the photo was taken with settings that caused them to be invisible against the sky. [ Some stages of the quadrupling were, as you probably know, implemented in ways which only involved the Up roads or the Down roads, with both Up roads in commission right through before the Downs were finished : so possibly North's new colour-light Up Homes might already have been in use.]
I also see that the semaphore Down Fast Home is still present, and is 'Off'. As it's still a semaphore (but with the future BN23 C/L Home already erected just behind it), the quadrupling's Down roads arrangements were apparently not yet finished (I hadn't known that at some time it had become the upper quadrant seen here rather than the somersault in other photos, including the other one that you linked to, with the A4). Could be that the changeover works completing the quadrupling north from Greenwood weren't quite yet in full swing.
You can also see both 'turn outs' to the Down Fast/Main in that photo, No.18s (FPL 17) immediately beyond the gantry, as well as 20s (FPL 19) beyond the long crossover.
Pre-quadrupling, the Down Goods from Oakleigh Park continued from BN as the second Down road through to Greenwood, with the Down Slow ending at North. So DS passenger trains had to go out through 18 to the DM (unless a Block Conversion ticket to Absolute was in force on the DG to Greenwood) while through trains on the DG could also pass in parallel : But 20 was also there to facilitate any trains on the DG getting straight out onto the Main when necessary.
After the quadrupling was finished with the second Down road having become the DS through to Potters, the need for both 'turn outs' must've been much reduced. So 18 was abolished, 20 retained to cater for moves to the DF from both the DS and DG, and 16 DS-DF Home re-arranged to apply through 20, but I don't know if those changes were then or a while after - 18 had certainly gone by 1967.

The long "Through Road" crossover didn't get reduced much before the few weeks' period just before the June 1970 resignalling AFAIR.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:48 am Pre-quadrupling, the Down Goods from Oakleigh Park continued from BN as the second Down road through to Greenwood, with the Down Slow ending at North. So DS passenger trains had to go out through 18 to the DM (unless a Block Conversion ticket to Absolute was in force on the DG to Greenwood) while through trains on the DG could also pass in parallel : But 20 was also there to facilitate any trains on the DG getting straight out onto the Main when necessary.
Well I never knew that Stevie and never gave it any thought before but now that you mention it regarding the Down slow line from New Barnet North Box to Greenwood box was really the 'Down goods line' and passenger trains having to be 'turned out' along the Down fast line at New Barnet North Box towards Greenwood box unless the 'block conversion ticket' had been instituted over the Down goods line between New Barnet North Box and Greenwood box that makes a lot of common sense. Yes you are right the 'flank road' beside the main line leading to a 'bottleneck' was always a 'goods road' worked under permissive block regulations on the GN at places like Welwyn to Digswell & Knebworth to Woolmer Green and at a number of other locations along the main line.

Yes the New Barnet North Box Down fast line somersault home signal?. Yeah I noticed that in the earlier photograph and that looks like a nice and neat little signal although possibly it should have had a white 'sighting board' fitted behind it but I presume it was seen quite clearly from a distance by a driver when on the straight level section after rounding the curve at Oakleigh Park and on passing New Barnet South Box and through the station. I see the signal post carried the 'white diamond' sign that indicated to drivers that it was track circuited on the approach side of the signal for the old rule 55 purposes.

I thought the 'long crossing' just north of New Barnet North Box was taken out in about 1968?. Was it really 1970?.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Hi again laurie1951,
I have just noticed that I didn't react to your Autumn 2017 query about an Alan in KX Control.
There was an Alan Peel in Control who certainly did go on to other varied, greater things, and many of them, but he had moved on before I got a job in there in '74. He's still about and sometimes comes to Liv.St. Control, and other such reunions.
There was also an Alan Short there for some part of my '74 -'77 time there, who also went on to some other, higher jobs elsewhere.
Finally, also there during my time was an Alan Butterfield, who also moved on, and I last heard of about 25+ years ago as a Shift Supervisor in the current Doncaster power box.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by laurie1951 »

hi Stevie G
thanks for info on Alan Peel ex Gn control at GN house in 1967 . I have over the years in Railway magazines seen his name at different places on BR .
Another name i often wonder if still around is a guy called Mick Reeder . He was a Signalman at `Hatfield and always had a pipe to puff on . He went on to be a signalling instructor at alderbrookes house in Ilford . Alderbrookes was a Lodging and training centre just down from Ilford Station and i attended there in 1968 for the Signalmans course . mick reeder was the Instructor and then a young guy, probably in his mid late 20s so i guess he may still be around . I recall i qualified as a signalman with Mick doing the exam .
Often names come to mind and i see quite a few on here that i recall and have worked with . Brian Barr was i a good friend and we have lost touch over the years . I did speak to him on the phone about 3 years ago .
I don't get on this web site much as seem to be out and busy in my retirement , If you ever see or hear from Brian or any others signalmen of the 66 to 69 era on the KX area of GN please pass on my regards .
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Brian is usually seen at the twice-yearly KX area/line reunions at Hatfield. We've lost Dave Tilbury six months ago (about 83). Sometimes also see at 'Hatfield', Geoff Brook, Wally Howe, Dave Wootton (Langley-Hitchin), and Dick Bradley if any of those are known to you.
I've also had fleeting contact on Facebook with Alan Curtis within the last year.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by laurie1951 »

Hi stevie
The names you mention , Dave Tilbury i knew had passed away , great character and i knew him well . Way back he lived in the railway houses at side of Enfield Chace Station just of the goods yard entrance . His father was i believe a Guard at Kx so Dave was i believe brought up at the railway cottages . But yes he was a nice guy and such a likeable character . The others you mention Wally Howe and Geoff brookes i knew . Wally was a relief man and being a telegraph lad at New Barnet i worked with him . i very much doubt doubt he would even recall me .Geoff brooks was a signalman at New Southgate i knew him vaguely, again i doubt they would recall me .
Its interesting you mentioned Alan Curtis , I knew him well and i am sure he would recall me . we both worked worked together at Barnet North as Telegraph lads . In fact it was Alan who trained me , when i cam e from Hatfield signal school after learning the Single needle telegram machines .
I might see if i can find him on facebook .Alan became a signalman at Barnet South but got fed up with shift work and being shut away in a box , he joined BT when i think it was still GPO . To my Knowledge he probably worked there for years . Ofcourse Brain Barr i knew well and spoke to him about 3/4 year ago i think. We had a good chat but that was it and i got the feeling he was not wanting to rekindle the friendship. The one person who alludes my searches on here and on social media is Keith Challen , he was a telegraph lad with me at Barnet North and went on the become a signalman at holloway and later a Guard at KX . but hs name seems to have disappeared of the edge as it seems he just had vanished. I suspect he is around but alludes Faceboook and social media . Thanks for info, if you speak with either Brian Barr , wally howe or geoff please pass on my regards ,though i doubt if they recall me . Like wise Alan Curtis , i will search him out , but if you have contact say hi from me . Keith Challen if you happen to get any news please contact me .
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

Slotted signals...

Interesting in what you said maybe a year ago regarding the Up slow and Up slow to Up fast line semaphore stop signals carried on a bracket post to the left of the Up slow line just off the Up slow line platform at New Barnet station because I didn't realize that signal was a 'slotted' signal and worked by both New Barnet North and New Barnet South boxes?. I always thought something was funny about that signal because New Barnet South box would be obviously 'switched out' (all the South box signals would be pulled off on all running lines) and then you would roll into the Up slow line platform on a Cravens unit sitting behind the drivers compartment and watching the road ahead and you would see that signal being pulled off to clear?. The distant signal beneath the slotted stop signal was obviously Oakleigh Park's Up slow line outer distant signal.

On reflection having that signal just off the Up slow line platform as a 'slotted' signal that was worked by both North and South boxes was a good idea in so far as when New Barnet South box was switched out New Barnet North box could then detain a train on the Up slow line in the platform rather than standing it at the New Barnet North box home signal on the approach to New Barnet station?. Was that the reason why it was a slotted signal?.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:19 am Slotted signals...

Interesting in what you said maybe a year ago regarding the Up slow and Up slow to Up fast line semaphore stop signals carried on a bracket post to the left of the Up slow line just off the Up slow line platform at New Barnet station because I didn't realize that signal was a 'slotted' signal and worked by both New Barnet North and New Barnet South boxes?. I always thought something was funny about that signal because New Barnet South box would be obviously 'switched out' (all the South box signals would be pulled off on all running lines) and then you would roll into the Up slow line platform on a Cravens unit sitting behind the drivers compartment and watching the road ahead and you would see that signal being pulled off to clear?. The distant signal beneath the slotted stop signal was obviously Oakleigh Park's Up slow line outer distant signal.
I've gone back four years in this thread but can't find a post of mine referring to those signals being slotted Mickey.

In fact (apart from the usual slotting for distants under stop signals), there were originally no signals slotted by both of the latter South and North boxes of our days at New Barnet.

But there were originally four signals south of the station (2 distants, 2 stop signals), control of which was transferrable between the boxes, and interlocked by being released by an Annetts Key which had to be in the box needing to work them.
The four signals** had been what were normally South's Down Fast and Slow Distants, and his Up Fast & Slow Homes. But control of the four was transferred from the South to the North by conveyance of the Key (which was only released by the levers of South's six other signals needing to be left 'Off' being Reverse), by the South signalman to North when South switched out, with the reverse of the process being necessary when South was to Switch In. Therefore while the Key was on the way between boxes, the 'transferrable' signals could not be worked at all, so South switching in and out not only needed the usual Regulations' requirements of the status of all the Block Sections, but a margin of up to about ten minutes between all Up trains if delay was to be avoided.
** - By the late 1960s the 'transfer' arrangement had become applied to only three of the original four signals (South's Down Fast Distant had been made motor-worked, and so was 'electrically slotted' thus no longer needing South control of it to be transferrable), and also one of the three that still had to be 'transferred' (South's Up Fast Home) had been changed from a mechanical to an electrical arrangement when it became a colour-light.
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Re: New Barnet North Signalbox

Post by Mickey »

Right I know what it is Stevie I am using the word 'slotted' signal when you are using the correct description a 'transferable arrangement' between both boxes.
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