Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

[richard]

Something positive that came out of this thread is that the Oakwood book is now on my list to buy in the new year - I did know of its existence, but there are always too many potential books to be read...

Usually with these controversial figures, there is something very contradictory in them especially when analyzed with simple statements like "X always designed beautiful locomotives". For example Thompson did design some ugly Pacific rebuilds but many people consider the Thompson B1s amongst the best looking British locomotives ever built. I think the same could apply to the K1s (the Peppercorn designation being more nominal than reality as it was a Thompson design he put into production). There's a contradiction in those two observations: someone with the reputation of some nasty looking rebuilds designing two good looking locos that performed well. Of course reality is more complicated!

As for the tone of threads: Yes think before posting: I've said it before, I'll say it again.
Don't aggravate disagreements - they'll quickly turn into arguments. Respect the other posters - whether they are young, old, experienced, or inexperienced.

Blackout: As an aside, most of the forum members have acquired much of our knowledge over years of reading but if you want some good background on the wider LNER, Michael Bonavia's 3 volume work is worth a read (and is very affordable on the secondhand market). Bonavia was actually on the LNER's management team in its later years so he has some inside knowledge on things like the dieselisation.

[52D]

Something positive that came out of this thread is that the Oakwood book is now on my list to buy in the new year - I did know of its existence, but there are always too many potential books to be read...

Usually with these controversial figures, there is something very contradictory in them especially when analyzed with simple statements like "X always designed beautiful locomotives". For example Thompson did design some ugly Pacific rebuilds but many people consider the Thompson B1s amongst the best looking British locomotives ever built. I think the same could apply to the K1s (the Peppercorn designation being more nominal than reality as it was a Thompson design he put into production). There's a contradiction in those two observations: someone with the reputation of some nasty looking rebuilds designing two good looking locos that performed well. Of course reality is more complicated!

As for the tone of threads: Yes think before posting: I've said it before, I'll say it again.
Don't aggravate disagreements - they'll quickly turn into arguments. Respect the other posters - whether they are young, old, experienced, or inexperienced.

Blackout: As an aside, most of the forum members have acquired much of our knowledge over years of reading but if you want some good background on the wider LNER, Michael Bonavia's 3 volume work is worth a read (and is very affordable on the secondhand market). Bonavia was actually on the LNER's management team in its later years so he has some inside knowledge on things like the dieselisation.

Well said Richard i agree wholeheartedly with your posting.

[60800]

Blackout: As an aside, most of the forum members have acquired much of our knowledge over years of reading but if you want some good background on the wider LNER, Michael Bonavia's 3 volume work is worth a read (and is very affordable on the secondhand market). Bonavia was actually on the LNER's management team in its later years so he has some inside knowledge on things like the dieselisation.

Thank you very much, I'll see if can get the books in due course

[strang steel]

Something positive that came out of this thread is that the Oakwood book is now on my list to buy in the new year - I did know of its existence, but there are always too many potential books to be read...

Me too, but I balked at the £60 that Amazon wants for a second hand copy of the 2007 paperback reprint, although have managed to get hold of a 1971 edition for £12 which SWMBO can't really complain at.

It will have to join the "to read" queue along with vol. 2B of the RCTS green books which I have just acquired.

[brsince78]

Me too, but I balked at the £60 that Amazon wants for a second hand copy of the 2007 paperback reprint, although have managed to get hold of a 1971 edition for £12 which SWMBO can't really complain at.

The two editions are very similar. If you are struggling to get a copy of the 2007 version, you may try to contact Oakwood directly. I have seen copies at their trade stands recently.

A very interesting and well researched book that attempts to redress the balance.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Something which has been niggling me more and more - how bad can locomotives be, which have bucket seats, electric lighting, hopper ashpans and rocker grates, V fronted cabs, full depth cabs and the best features of a Gresley Pacific in terms of the double kylchap exhaust and 225lb/250lb free steaming boilers, combined with the normal 8 wheel non corridor tender?

The more I think on it, the more I am coming round to the conclusion that there's a very strange amount of detritus posted about the Thompson Pacifics with a lot of emphasis placed on cylinder placement, ignoring all else about them.

[Tom F]

Something which has been niggling me more and more - how bad can locomotives be, which have bucket seats, electric lighting, hopper ashpans and rocker grates, V fronted cabs, full depth cabs and the best features of a Gresley Pacific in terms of the double kylchap exhaust and 225lb/250lb free steaming boilers, combined with the normal 8 wheel non corridor tender?

The more I think on it, the more I am coming round to the conclusion that there's a very strange amount of detritus posted about the Thompson Pacifics with a lot of emphasis placed on cylinder placement, ignoring all else about them.

Good point....and lets be honest, if you move the cylinders forward...you get a Peppercorn Pacific (Generalizing of course)

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

You got a point there, B1 Tom!

Once the cylinders were moved forward, this reduced the tendency for the frames to crack between the cylinders and the steam pipes to fracture. Still, Peppercorn sorted these out nicely!

[S.A.C. Martin]

We say "sorted out"...but having put the bogie/cylinder arrangement back to where it was previously, we then get different problems - some A1s reportedly worse riders than others, etc etc, and the A2s had high theoretical tractive effort, but if Cecil J. Allen is to believed, didn't put the power down as well as other Pacific classes.

I just think there's a huge amount of fairly negative press for what were not outstanding locomotives but by no means so unbelievably flawed they didn't do their work, day in day out, like the rest of the ECML Pacific fleet. To the extent that we get Thompson = rubbish and this is perpetuated ad inifinitum without much in the way of actual evidence.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who drove a Thompson Pacific in LNER/BR days, who wasn't from one of the Scottish depots who sent them all back, as based purely on anecdotal evidence provided by Peter Grafton, the Scottish drivers were dismissive of the Pacifics qualities before they'd even been delivered!!!

I fear it's unlikely there are any drivers out there who did drive them, still with us, sadly.

[brsince78]

Two minor points (without wishing to inflame the discussion):-

1. Thompson removed the V-fronted cab from his Pacific after an incident when an object was thrown through a cab spectacle injuring a footplateman. It was re-instated on the Peppercorn designs on the basis that it removed the reflection of cab lighting from the footplatemen's view.
2. The Peppercorn Pacifics did have a reputation for poor riding but I dont think that this was related directly to the placement of the cylinders. From reading one of Peter Townend's books it appears that the closest they got to fixing this in BR days was to increase the spring tension on the pony truck. I'd be interested to know how well 60163 rides and whether any specific attention was paid to the design of the springing.

[60800]

Using the Top Gear special with Tornado for information, it appeared that it was quite rough riding on the approach up to and through Durham heading North.

Evidently, Top Gear specials are usually a load of rubbish as there is plenty of evidence to suggest that if it were the late 40's / early 50's, an A1 would have beaten that jaguar by at least an hour.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Using the Top Gear special with Tornado for information, it appeared that it was quite rough riding on the approach up to and through Durham heading North.

More down to the track there, actually. Tornado's bogie was the A1 type but modified to be better balanced and riding. There was a lot of talk of using an A4 type front bogie in the early days as some A1s did use them at one point.

Evidently, Top Gear specials are usually a load of rubbish as there is plenty of evidence to suggest that if it were the late 40's / early 50's, an A1 would have beaten that jaguar by at least an hour.

Well yeah, but they did say throughout the film that the A1 road didn't exist, and that this wasn't a complete recreation...

...it was just a bit of fun, which I thoroughly enjoyed. I can be seen waving at the start of the film for just under a second whilst Clarkson is in the cab!

[60800]

Evidently, Top Gear specials are usually a load of rubbish as there is plenty of evidence to suggest that if it were the late 40's / early 50's, an A1 would have beaten that jaguar by at least an hour.

Well yeah, but they did say throughout the film that the A1 road didn't exist, and that this wasn't a complete recreation...

Apologies for that short rant, it does genuinley annoy me that the car always has to win in any Top Gear special.
If only we still had water troughs, that jag would have been beaten by miles

Does Tornado even have a water scoop?

[60800]

I'm gonna conveniently answer my own question.
The water scoop was designed out of Tornado, more info on major changes here:
http://www.a1steam.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=83

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Another reason ET gave for the flat-fronted cab was an incident as Wiske troughs where a streamliner's front cab window was smashed by the weight of water hitting it. The fireman was, tragically, fatally injured by flying glass. The subnstitution of the plain glass with Triplex glass saw to it that was no repetition of this incident.